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  #371  
Old 06-04-2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by treghet View Post
Perfect description of them. By 1987 thrash was already becoming a diluted style. Sacred Reich wasn't a bad band by any means, but they did little to differentiate themselves from the hoards of copycats appearing around this time. When you look back their music today they're nothing more than an perfect stereotype for the American thrash metal sound, and I suppose that is why the retro-thrashers latch onto them so tightly.
This, all of this. When I saw them live a year back, all I could think was that this band was in reality, really nothing special in the greater scheme of things when it comes to metal music. Sacred Reich really are as stereotypical as American thrash gets.

Even the more obscure crossover bands hold more appeal to me than Sacred Reich do. At that same show, Wehrmacht and Witchaven were the main support acts and they both totally blew Sacred Reich off the stage.
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  #372  
Old 06-04-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Onioner View Post
This, all of this. When I saw them live a year back, all I could think was that this band was in reality, really nothing special in the greater scheme of things when it comes to metal music. Sacred Reich really are as stereotypical as American thrash gets.

Even the more obscure crossover bands hold more appeal to me than Sacred Reich do. At that same show, Wehrmacht and Witchaven were the main support acts and they both totally blew Sacred Reich off the stage.
I guess I fall into that retro thrasher demographic. I love Sacred Reich and thought they were killer live when I saw them.

Again, I don't think a band being stereotypical, predictable, or unoriginal should matter at all. It's all about the quality of the songs they put out, and Sacred Reich had some great material. I would love to see Wehrmacht though.
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  #373  
Old 06-04-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiner202 View Post
I guess I fall into that retro thrasher demographic. I love Sacred Reich and thought they were killer live when I saw them.

Again, I don't think a band being stereotypical, predictable, or unoriginal should matter at all. It's all about the quality of the songs they put out, and Sacred Reich had some great material. I would love to see Wehrmacht though.
The retro thrashers that treghet and I are referring to are a very narrowminded bunch, which I don't think you are at all. Being super into thrash bands is all well and good, it's the attitude that occasionally comes with the fans (you being an obvious exception) that can just suck. We're talking about kids so obsessed with the thrash image that they go nuts on patch jackets, disparage bands that dare to try anything new musically, overdramatize how mistreated by their peers/their family they are for being into metal, and they constantly overuse the phrase "old-school." Like, these are kids that will spend a shit-ton of their parents' money on eBay buying an old Megadeth tour shirt and subsequently tear off the sleeves just so it looks more thrash or whatever the fuck. To me, those kids are one of the dumbest parts about going to a concert in LA.

There's definitely a middle ground when it comes to the significance of originality vs. sheer quality. I certainly listen to my fair share of bands that do absolutely nothing new musically, but have songs so badass that I really don't care. Orchid, Midnight Chaser, Witchaven, Enforcer, Impaled... the list goes on.

My problem with thrash however, is that the genre itself is so inherently musically limited that you have to really do something special to stick out. Metallica had the best hooks in the genre, DRI was pretty much faster than everyone else, Exodus had sheer violent brutality, Slayer (or rather, Hanneman) was able to make seemingly musically retarded and dissonant riffs work within the greater context of the song, Kreator now has their own awesome power/thrash/melo-death hybrid going on and even Warbringer has John Kevill, who I'd argue is one of the most charismatic frontmen in the genre. For me, Sacred Reich just don't have that extra something that makes them really special, even if they have a few cool riffs and some enjoyable songs here and there.

With almost every other subgenre of metal, the room for experimentation is much larger. Thrash's limited scope is what caused the genre to stagnate and die a bloody death back in the early '90s, and it's what killed the so-called "re-thrash" thing a couple years ago.
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Last edited by Onioner; 06-04-2014 at 06:08 PM.
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  #374  
Old 06-05-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Onioner View Post
The retro thrashers that treghet and I are referring to are a very narrowminded bunch, which I don't think you are at all. Being super into thrash bands is all well and good, it's the attitude that occasionally comes with the fans (you being an obvious exception) that can just suck. We're talking about kids so obsessed with the thrash image that they go nuts on patch jackets, disparage bands that dare to try anything new musically, overdramatize how mistreated by their peers/their family they are for being into metal, and they constantly overuse the phrase "old-school." Like, these are kids that will spend a shit-ton of their parents' money on eBay buying an old Megadeth tour shirt and subsequently tear off the sleeves just so it looks more thrash or whatever the fuck. To me, those kids are one of the dumbest parts about going to a concert in LA.
Haha yeah, I'm not that crazy. I do love my patch jacket though :P

Quote:
There's definitely a middle ground when it comes to the significance of originality vs. sheer quality. I certainly listen to my fair share of bands that do absolutely nothing new musically, but have songs so badass that I really don't care. Orchid, Midnight Chaser, Witchaven, Enforcer, Impaled... the list goes on.
The issue I have with the originality argument is this: If something is great because it was original in 1983, then as time goes on, it becomes less unique, and potentially worse because there is more of that sound out there. I started listening to metal around 2006, so to me, Kill 'em All is just as original as Ignorance. That isn't actually the case, obviously, but my point is that I don't think albums should be faulted for their lack of originality because the best original things will just get ripped off anyway. Whatever band makes that sound most interesting is what I'm curious in hearing. Most of the time, it just happens to be the band that invented that sound.

Quote:
My problem with thrash however, is that the genre itself is so inherently musically limited that you have to really do something special to stick out. Metallica had the best hooks in the genre, DRI was pretty much faster than everyone else, Exodus had sheer violent brutality, Slayer (or rather, Hanneman) was able to make seemingly musically retarded and dissonant riffs work within the greater context of the song, Kreator now has their own awesome power/thrash/melo-death hybrid going on and even Warbringer has John Kevill, who I'd argue is one of the most charismatic frontmen in the genre. For me, Sacred Reich just don't have that extra something that makes them really special, even if they have a few cool riffs and some enjoyable songs here and there.

With almost every other subgenre of metal, the room for experimentation is much larger. Thrash's limited scope is what caused the genre to stagnate and die a bloody death back in the early '90s, and it's what killed the so-called "re-thrash" thing a couple years ago.
I would agree that thrash is among the most limited genres. As soon as you start doing something to it, it becomes death metal, or power metal, or something else. With that said, I do think the retro thrash phase has missed out on some key areas: there aren't too many bands (other than Vektor/HeXen/Warbringer) doing many interesting things in terms of technical thrash, and even fewer doing the power/thrash and speed/thrash things.

With that said, what I love about thrash is that it's the middle ground between writing catchy and memorable songs, and providing lots of energy. Most black and death metal bands fail to capture my attention because they sacrifice songwriting for brutality, to the point where everything blends together. This is primarily the reason I like the older death metal bands, because it evolved out of thrash.
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  #375  
Old 06-05-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiner202 View Post
The issue I have with the originality argument is this: If something is great because it was original in 1983, then as time goes on, it becomes less unique, and potentially worse because there is more of that sound out there. I started listening to metal around 2006, so to me, Kill 'em All is just as original as Ignorance. That isn't actually the case, obviously, but my point is that I don't think albums should be faulted for their lack of originality because the best original things will just get ripped off anyway. Whatever band makes that sound most interesting is what I'm curious in hearing. Most of the time, it just happens to be the band that invented that sound.
I started listening to metal in 1991, so yeah, Kill 'Em All is just as original as Ignorance to me too, but the reason I'm doing this whole ridiculous album by album thing is to see how the genre evolved and eventually all but disintegrated, so I'm actually giving points for originality. The Sacred Reich debut is actually somewhat of a landmark album in its lack of originality, I think. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the album, in fact it's pretty good (which is why I gave it a 7) but it adds absolutely nothing new to the genre. It's Metallica-by-numbers. I know what you're saying with the originality thing, but it's important. If you want to look at every album in a vacuum, that's fine but it's also really hard to do. You can't just un-hear what you've heard.
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  #376  
Old 06-06-2014, 12:30 AM
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I'm really looking forward to your write ups on Beneath the remains, South of Heaven, Arise, and Swallowed in Black by Sadus.

I don't expect anything below a 9 from any of these albums. Maybe Arise...
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  #377  
Old 06-06-2014, 08:04 AM
Wrecking Crew Wrecking Crew is offline
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Originally Posted by Sepultura69 View Post
I'm really looking forward to your write ups on Beneath the remains, South of Heaven, Arise, and Swallowed in Black by Sadus.

I don't expect anything below a 9 from any of these albums. Maybe Arise...
I would give Beneath the Remains a 10 and Arise maybe a 8, but then it's not my thread
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  #378  
Old 06-06-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sepultura69 View Post
I'm really looking forward to your write ups on Beneath the remains, South of Heaven, Arise, and Swallowed in Black by Sadus.

I don't expect anything below a 9 from any of these albums. Maybe Arise...
Not to spoil anything, but lower than a 9 on BTR and SOH would be folly. I haven't listened to Swallowed in Black in FOREVER, and I was actually thinking about it a week or two ago but decided to wait to get to it. I remember it being one of the more ruthless albums I've ever heard, so I would expect good things on that one too.
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  #379  
Old 06-19-2014, 05:02 PM
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Holy Moses - Finished With the Dogs - October 19, 1987

Much like Dark Angel and Sacrifice before them, Holy Moses followed up an entirely mediocre debut with one fucking barn-burner of an album. Their debut, Queen of Siam was a plodding, boring affair, wasting Sabina Classen's vocals on uninspired stuff. Finished With the Dogs is like an adrenaline shot to the heart in comparison.

Right from the start, even though the title track is one of the weaker ones present, it's clear that Holy Moses is out for blood this time around. Jackhammer riffs abound, as tracks like "Current of Death" and "Corroded Dreams" stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the very best songs their countrymen had to offer. Of course, there are some weaker songs and there is a decided lack of melody throughout, but this is some of the most ferocious, aggressive and heavy thrash metal to this point. Sabina's vocals may have sounded over-the-top on the debut -- and they still do, but at least the instrumentation underneath matches their intensity this time around.

Standouts: Current of Death, Corroded Dreams, In the Slaughterhouse

Score: 9/10
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  #380  
Old 06-19-2014, 05:34 PM
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I'll have to look out for this one. I don't really enjoy either of the 2 Holy Moses albums I have that much (Queen of Siam and World Chaos), though I'll definitely revisit them to see if I like them more now.

I don't know if I've ever seen a positive Holy Moses review
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