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  #71  
Old 12-07-2010, 05:35 PM
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Arghoslent scoffs at you!
Dude, you don't know how much I've battled myself about that band. Never has a band that I hate ideologically actually made me wish they weren't such fucking idiots as much as Arghoslent.
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  #72  
Old 12-07-2010, 05:37 PM
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Dude, you don't know how much I've battled myself about that band. Never has a band that I hate ideologically actually made me wish they weren't such fucking idiots as much as Arghoslent.
Because of the riffs, right?
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  #73  
Old 12-07-2010, 05:38 PM
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Because of the riffs, right?
Yeah, they're amazing.
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  #74  
Old 12-07-2010, 09:48 PM
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Okay, let me throw in a small confession to this debate: Part of me is still a weird, outcasted thirteen year-old getting into metal and loving dark imagery, and Watain's show/image/belief system is cool to me, and I'm pretty willing to forgive certain transgressions. Much more so than, say, NSBM bands.
Real talk, Brad.

Now I'm curious about what aspects of their imagery/belief system you find attractive. Not being sarcastic/rhetorical or trying to bait you into a trap -- I'd really like to know. I don't think there's any part of it I could get behind, but I would like to understand. I've been that weird 13-year-old outcast, and some of the fantasies I harbored then were... well, not generous and open-hearted. What part of you does Watain feed?
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  #75  
Old 12-07-2010, 09:59 PM
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The corpsepaint, the altars, the fire, the artwork, the air of mystery they carry themselves with, their usually pretty awesome lyrics about the devil and darkness and witchery...the animal "sacrifice" is the thing I'm the least attracted to, but it's a part of the image they offer, and I guess I don't really mind it. Never been a vegetarian, never been an animal rights advocate, never really cared that much about that movement, so it's obvious that it wouldn't stir up my emotions to see the band present animal sacrifice as a part of their shtick.

I mean, here's some sample lyrics, from "Reaping Death," probably my favorite song of theirs at this point:

"Higher, higher/Come on, you sons of fire/Daughters of the black moon/Practitioners of arts most dire"

"Hail! Hail!/Thou who makes the cosmos wail/In anguish as we fuck the world/And sodomize the god that failed."

I'm sure you can see how that's attractive to the same guy who as a 12-year-old bought his first Iron Maiden album after hearing "666/The number of the beast/Hell and fire were spawned to be released." I mean, I was a Christian when I got into metal and that shit was still attractive to me. I like darkness, I like dark imagery, I like "evil" stuff, even though I know it's all nonsense. I wouldn't like metal if I wasn't attracted to that side of humanity. So is the animal sacrifice a little bit silly? Inhuman even? Well, sure, but it's part of a package that appeals to me, the kid who grumbled about going to Sunday school and went home to listen to Slayer.

That's all.
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  #76  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:07 PM
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So with the altars, the "air of mystery," the lyrics about "daughters of the black moon"... does it make you feel like you're accessing something bigger than yourself? (Even if it's, like, just pretend?)

Or is it the sense of saying "fuck you" to what you're supposed to be doing? (Like running home from Sunday School to listen to Slayer...) Does it feel like it gives you some bite-back against the shit that weighs you down? Higher higher fuck the world?

Or a bit of both?
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  #77  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:15 PM
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Hmm, I've never really thought to articulate it, so you've kind of got me at a loss. I'd say when I was first getting into metal and I still felt some attachment to the "spiritual world" or whatever, it felt dangerous and rebellious, and maybe my lingering attraction to it is somewhat of a vestige of that time in my life. Now though? I think I just like dark, evil stuff for the same reasons I like, say, superhero comics and Western movies. It's an escape from the familiar. It has nothing to do with my life, but what it presents is "cool" to me.

This is ridiculously hard to put into words, sorry for rambling.
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  #78  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:25 PM
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Hmm, I've never really thought to articulate it, so you've kind of got me at a loss. I'd say when I was first getting into metal and I still felt some attachment to the "spiritual world" or whatever, it felt dangerous and rebellious, and maybe my lingering attraction to it is somewhat of a vestige of that time in my life. Now though? I think I just like dark, evil stuff for the same reasons I like, say, superhero comics and Western movies. It's an escape from the familiar. It has nothing to do with my life, but what it presents is "cool" to me.

This is ridiculously hard to put into words, sorry for rambling.
But, I mean, you don't think actual evil is cool. Right? It's all symbolic and metaphorical? You're not down with actually beating cats to death, say, or celebrating slave-rape? Because I think I can relate to the theory, but where bands cross into actual cruelty, I can't follow.
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  #79  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:27 PM
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Oh, and no apologies necessary. I'm the one asking all these damned questions.
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  #80  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:35 PM
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But, I mean, you don't think actual evil is cool. Right? It's all symbolic and metaphorical? You're not down with actually beating cats to death, say, or celebrating slave-rape? Because I think I can relate to the theory, but where bands cross into actual cruelty, I can't follow.
Well, right. Actual evil, if we're going to use the word "evil" to mean amoral, criminal activities in this world, is unforgivable. I'm kind of struggling with where I draw that line right now since Watain does horrible things to animals (and I've already supported them financially) and Arghoslent, whom I'm starting to get really into, has horrible, horrible racist lyrics (haven't bought anything of theirs.) I'm working on it. As a metalhead, this is kind of one of the big questions, and I haven't figured out where I stand just yet.

Metaphorical evil is attractive to me, though, yes. I think even a band like Iron Maiden plays up that kind of evil to some degree, putting Eddie on their covers. Mercyful Fate were just a nice group of Danish dudes who happened to sing about witchcraft and paint inverted crosses on their heads from time to time.

At the end of the day, though, the music has to back it up. Deicide has been (lyrically) fucking God and hailing Satan for a lot longer than Watain, but their music sucks. If Watain didn't write great black metal songs, at least part of this debate would be moot.
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