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  #21  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilCheese View Post
But that's my point: They're faltering based on your standards.

For me, HITNF, Q2K, and Tribe have some of my favorite driving music, so I've had a pretty lengthy relationship with those albums. I'd say I ignore at least half of HITFN and Q2K, but I still like them. If those albums were trying to stay closer to the sound that Queensryche was known for, I can't say I'd like them better beacuse of it.

I could easily make the same argument you're making about Queensryche about Iron Maiden: That anybody that's hanging on them now is wasting their time. No new Iron Maiden album holds a candle to their classics, and I think a good number of their fans would agree with that.

The difference is that Iron Maiden has hardly evolved since Number of the Beast, and has a lot of fans. It's easy to pick on Queensryche, because your opinion is basically the popular one to have.

But at the end of the day... if Dance of Death and A Matter of Life and Death can't compete with Powerslave and 7th Son and HITFN and Q2K can't compete with Empire or Operation: Mindcrime, why should one band pull the plug and the other keep going?

I'll answer that, because Iron Maiden didn't change, so even if the quality isn't as good, it's still the same sound Iron Maiden fans fell in love with to begin with. In other words, what I'm saying is you're allowing nostalgia and brand loyalty rather than artistic integrity guide your opinions on Iron Maiden. But because Queensryche studio albums rarely (O:M 2 being an exception, although not sonically) appeal to nostalgia, and Queensryche doesn't have the cheering squad a band like Iron Maiden has, it's easier to be critical of their artistic output.

Am I wrong? Maybe. And I'm not trying to single you out here either Jeff, I'm speaking pretty generally about people that listen to Iron Maiden and Queensryche.
Well, you almost had me in total agreement.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:55 AM
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When you show me one person who genuinely likes/loves the majority of Queensryche's post-Promised land output, we'll talk. To date I have not met one. I don't think I've ever seen another band who is so universally disliked after a certain point in their career.

I'm not saying anyone's opinion is "wrong", but in the real world, majority rules, and you can't act like anything I'm saying is a ridiculous notion.
Right here buddy.

But you're already making your point very, very clear: The wisdom is in the crowds.

And that's the great irony of metal, in my opinion. A genre that tried to be different, and appealed to few, and received critical disdain to begin with now rags on those who evolve to a different form of metal, or out of metal, with silly arguments like, "How many people like x album?"

Because if nobody liked The Number of the Beast, it would suck.
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by DethMaiden View Post
Well, you almost had me in total agreement.
C'mon man. How have they evolved in any real way?

Musically, it's the same approach: Twin-guitars, trade-off solos, harmony guitar parts, similar chord progressions, and lately, the song formula is almost always the same (soft intro, gallop verses, layered choruses, 3 solos, etc.) Lyrically the topics have never shifted very much either.

The nuances of Iron Maiden have changed, but can you really say there's been a significant evolution in the core of what Iron Maiden has done since NOTB?
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilCheese View Post
C'mon man. How have they evolved in any real way?

Musically, it's the same approach: Twin-guitars, trade-off solos, harmony guitar parts, similar chord progressions, and lately, the song formula is almost always the same (soft intro, gallop verses, layered choruses, 3 solos, etc.) Lyrically the topics have never shifted very much either.

The nuances of Iron Maiden have changed, but can you really say there's been a significant evolution in the core of what Iron Maiden has done since NOTB?
I think it's definitely an evolutionary process. You can listen to NOTB next to AMOLAD and they're totally different albums. NOTB sounds a bit like POM which sounds a bit like Powerslave and so on...but evolution is absolutely the key word. It's like with Death: Scream Bloody Gore does NOT sound like The Sound of Perseverance, but each album sounds a little like the last. Maiden's just the same.
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  #25  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:02 AM
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I think it's definitely an evolutionary process. You can listen to NOTB next to AMOLAD and they're totally different albums. NOTB sounds a bit like POM which sounds a bit like Powerslave and so on...but evolution is absolutely the key word. It's like with Death: Scream Bloody Gore does NOT sound like The Sound of Perseverance, but each album sounds a little like the last. Maiden's just the same.
Let's try a different approach: What's similar between the albums?

First of all, topically, it's not that different. Secondly, the music: I think Number is more energetic, but in terms of how the music is built, you can see the same basic building blocks: The chord progressions are still slightly familiar. There's still the gallop that's favored by the bass. There's still a penchant for solos. The singing style remains unchanged.

You get my idea.

I mean, of course it's different - there's over twenty years between the albums. But how has Iron Maiden really evolved? Is there a form of song on AMOLAD that's new? Some new stylistic approach? (And don't say Nicko, his approach to drumming isn't exactly that far removed from POM.) I mean the actual core of what I would argue defines Iron Maiden is still there in full force on AMOLAD.

And let's say you're not an Iron Maiden fan that's spent years listening and scrutinizing the details. If you listened to NOTB and then AMOLAD would you be like, "Whoa! [X] is a huge difference!" Or would you note that, again, while the nuances are definitely different, the actual core remains the same.

(I think you would. My two cents.)
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  #26  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilCheese View Post
Let's try a different approach: What's similar between the albums?

First of all, topically, it's not that different. Secondly, the music: I think Number is more energetic, but in terms of how the music is built, you can see the same basic building blocks: The chord progressions are still slightly familiar. There's still the gallop that's favored by the bass. There's still a penchant for solos. The singing style remains unchanged.

You get my idea.

I mean, of course it's different there's over twenty years between the albums. But how has Iron Maiden really evolved? Is there a form of song on AMOLAD that's new? Some new stylistic approach? (And don't say Nicko, his approach to drumming isn't exactly that far removed from POM.) I mean actual core of what I would argue defines Iron Maiden is still there in full force on AMOLAD.

And let's say you're not an Iron Maiden fan that's spent years listening and scrutinizing the details. If you listened to TNOTB and than AMOLAD would you be like, "Whoa!" Or would you note that, again, while the nuances are definitely different, the actual core remains the same.

(I think you would. My two cents.)
Even if I accept all that, which I'm not prepared to, you say it like it's a bad thing. Frankly, if this career Maiden has pieced together is all based on one core sound, they couldn't have picked a better one.
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:05 AM
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I'll answer that, because Iron Maiden didn't change,


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  #28  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilCheese View Post
But that's my point: They're faltering based on your standards.

For me, HITNF, Q2K, and Tribe have some of my favorite driving music, so I've had a pretty lengthy relationship with those albums. I'd say I ignore at least half of HITFN and Q2K, but I still like them. If those albums were trying to stay closer to the sound that Queensryche was known for, I can't say I'd like them better beacuse of it.

I could easily make the same argument you're making about Queensryche about Iron Maiden: That anybody that's hanging on them now is wasting their time. No new Iron Maiden album holds a candle to their classics, and I think a good number of their fans would agree with that.

The difference is that Iron Maiden has hardly evolved since Number of the Beast, and has a lot of fans. It's easy to pick on Queensryche, because your opinion is basically the popular one to have.

But at the end of the day... if Dance of Death and A Matter of Life and Death can't compete with Powerslave and 7th Son and HITFN and Q2K can't compete with Empire or Operation: Mindcrime, why should one band pull the plug and the other keep going?

I'll answer that, because Iron Maiden didn't change, so even if the quality isn't as good, it's still the same sound Iron Maiden fans fell in love with to begin with. In other words, what I'm saying is you're allowing nostalgia and brand loyalty rather than artistic integrity guide your opinions on Iron Maiden. But because Queensryche studio albums rarely (O:M 2 being an exception, although not sonically) appeal to nostalgia, and Queensryche doesn't have the cheering squad a band like Iron Maiden has, it's easier to be critical of their artistic output.

Am I wrong? Maybe. And I'm not trying to single you out here either Jeff, I'm speaking pretty generally about people that listen to Iron Maiden and Queensryche.
You are not in any way wrong for suggesting that there are people who hate newer Maiden, dislike it, or whine that it's nowhere near the standard of their old stuff. But the honest truth is that I know dozens of Maiden fans, and at very best, 10 or 15% of them aren't crazy about the new stuff, and even almost every one of those people likes Brave New World. I know a sizeable but not quite as big number of Queensryche fans, and I'd say maybe 5% of them genuinely like any post-Promised land album. Actually, among people I know in real life, I honestly think I know one. My point is that dissenting opinion always exists, but at the end of the day, democracy rules. If you made a poll asking people whether or not Queensryche should call it a day, I would bet all I own that the ruling answer would be Yes, or at least no with a big clause. If you constructed that poll for Maiden you would see nearly poplar opposites.

I'm not saying a band should not exist if they are incapable of producing their best album 20+ years into their career - not everyone can be Saxon. But if they are incapable of producing an album even somewhat on par with their output from 15 years ago and prior, in the eyes of the vast majority of their fans, I do believe they are somewhat wasting their time. Reunion Maiden albums aren't my favorite records (though Brave New World is up there), but I am still genuinely interested in them, love listening to them, think they include many great songs, love seeing them on tour, and I think they are nowhere near the worst albums they've ever done. You'd be hard pressed to find Queensryche fans who hold that opinion of their 1995-present output. And yes, I realize you're one of them, but how many others do you know? Exactly.

And I disagree that Maiden hasn't evolved since 1982, to argue every Maiden album is exactly the same would actually be wrong. But I do believe they've mostly stuck to the same "mission statement" throughout their career, and that's why I think people stick by them like they do.
I don't care if I'm allowing nostalgia/brand loyalty to effect my opinion. I hate experimentation for the sake of experimentation, and originality for the sake of originality. I hate music elitists who act like there's a crime in a band sticking to one basic style/sound. Not all evolving is bad, in fact most bands wind up evolving at some point in their career in order to make their best music - but abrupt and extreme style change, such that a band can't even be considered the same genre - count me out.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:07 AM
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Thanks. Because that really refutes my point.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing - I'm just making the case that compared to a band like Queensryche, Iron Maiden has remained a relative constant in what they do in the studio.

If you don't agree, I'd love to know why.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilCheese View Post
Right here buddy.

But you're already making your point very, very clear: The wisdom is in the crowds.

And that's the great irony of metal, in my opinion. A genre that tried to be different, and appealed to few, and received critical disdain to begin with now rags on those who evolve to a different form of metal, or out of metal, with silly arguments like, "How many people like x album?"

Because if nobody liked The Number of the Beast, it would suck.


I think you're trying to turn this into something bigger than it is.

I'm not saying the majority is always right, but at the end of the day - it rules. If you read 20 reviews of an album, 18 saying it sucks and 2 saying it's amazing, be fucking honest, which one are you going to figure is more close to the truth?

I think you're honestly being kind of an elitist about this whole thing, when in reality it's simply just a massive clash of opinions - and since you're in the minority, you're reaching for defensive mechanisms. I'm not any more right than you are, but this is something I feel VERY strongly about (my thoughts on Queensryche, that is), you're not going to change my mind - and I'm clearly not going to change yours.
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