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  #811  
Old 12-28-2013, 03:51 AM
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adamclark52 adamclark52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodoftheKings View Post
I download albums sometimes but I don't think it's generally an ok thing to do. One thing I will say is that there's plenty of artist that I have bought albums/tickets from who I never would have gotten into in the first place if I never pirated their music.
I have to agree with that comment. I haven't (illegally) downloaded a song for close to ten years but back in the early days of Napster I was unemployed, depressed, and bored out of my mind. I was able to download everything by the Melvins and Sigur Ros (at the time, early 2001) and being able to hear that music I wouldn't have otherwise had any way to helped me out a lot. Those two bands have come to be two or my all-time favorites and I don't know if I would have gotten into them otherwise. And over the years I bought all the stuff.

Times have changed, the music industry has to adapt unfortunately. They seem to be doing a good job. Things aren't as bleak as they were ten years ago.
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  #812  
Old 12-28-2013, 10:45 AM
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The distinction AnthG is making between theft and piracy is correct, but it doesn't make a difference -- it is wrong, immoral, whatever. That being said, I'll admit that I do it. I don't download much new music, it's usually old thrash (weird, eh? But I'm not paying for a copy of Detente's lone album just to listen to it a few times) but that doesn't make it any more right. I'm pirating music, plain and simple.

Honestly though, if it weren't so fucking easy, people wouldn't do it. Seriously, why is it still so fucking easy? This has been going on for YEARS. If the music industry really wanted to put a stop to it, they would have done it by now, wouldn't they? It's so EASY. I can download almost anything I can think of in literally minutes. Go ahead, try it. Search for an album -- hell, search for a discography -- if you're not a complete imbecile, that album/discography/whatever will be on your hard drive before dinner time. If those Porsches that ravenheart mentioned were as easy to steal as music is to pirate, and there were little to no repercussions for doing it, just as there is with pirating music you can bet your physical copy of Earth Rocker that I'd have three of those puppies sitting in my driveway right now. It's a joke, really.
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  #813  
Old 12-28-2013, 11:25 AM
AnthG AnthG is offline
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There's also situations where piracy is the only way to acquire certain music, and even these situations are seen as tolerable or even acceptable by stark opponents of downloading. For example, if it wasn't for piracy, I would not be able to ever hear Revocation's first album Empire of the Obscene because it was self-released and now out of print. You can't find a new copy in chain stores, indie stores, on Amazon, any online stores affiliated with the band like Relapse's website, nor is it available digitally on Amazon Mp3, iTunes, spotify, etc. This is just one example that "affects" me, but i'm sure everyone on here can name an instance like this for a band/album they like.

Or even if the album is not available in certain territories for whatever reason such as a person being a developing nation or nations that have strict media import policies and it's hard to acquire certain music legally, like certain Middle eastern countries or even more developed nations like China. We deem it ok for situations like these but not for others. And yeah, I guess a distinction should be made between a person living in Iran or Israel where their favourite band's material isn't available vs. the web savvy teenager in a developed nation dumping full discographies onto his/her hard drive while they're sleeping.

I think situations like these as well as the various posts in this thread over the last few pages have shown that this isn't a simple black and white "this is wrong and this is right" issue. It's such a double edged sword, it's hard for most people to stand on one side. Even bands themselves recognize that. I still see shit loads of interviews where bands are asked about the interview, and a lot of time the answer is something along the lines of "It's wrong and it sucks we aren't getting paid for our music...BUUUUTTT it's also given us more exposure and made our music available in certain areas of the world, and people show up to the shows blah blah blah."


Sort of back to the topic of this thread and tying into this sort of, it also somewhat bothers me that a lot of people who are very anti-piracy and downloading because of the effects it has on the artists and indirectly the consumers, have no issues pirating other types of media. Like porn. That's not necessarily pointed at anyone here (although, come on, i'm sure there are at least a couple of you who fit this bill), but people in general who have an issue with illegally downloading/streaming music but not Porn, TV shows, movies, sporting events, etc.
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  #814  
Old 12-28-2013, 04:58 PM
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ravenheart ravenheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gordo View Post
The distinction AnthG is making between theft and piracy
No, it isn't.

And I don't need to explain why because a whole bunch of people, including me, already did that perfectly adequately enough. Juggling semantics as a means of justification proves nothing.

Also, ticket prices aren't rising? In which parallel universe is that true? The only thing which hasn't changed is merch prices.
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Last edited by ravenheart; 12-28-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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  #815  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:02 PM
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ravenheart ravenheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
i'm sure everyone on here can name an instance like this for a band/album they like
Several. I haven't heard those albums.
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  #816  
Old 12-28-2013, 05:35 PM
AnthG AnthG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenheart View Post
No, it isn't.

And I don't need to explain why because a whole bunch of people, including me, already did that perfectly adequately enough. Juggling semantics as a means of justification proves nothing.
Yes, it is. I'm not just "juggling semantics", i'm going by the actual dictionary AND legal definitions of theft and piracy, and referring to them by those definitions. And El Gordo said as much, and immediately followed up his assessment of my distinction by saying that it doesn't make it any more morally right. I'm also not using it as a means for a justification for it being right, something I said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
I'm not defending piracy
here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
You think Piracy is wrong? I don't necessarily disagree.
and finally here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
I don't think it has less of a negative connotation at all. They're both illegal and immoral activities that have negative consequences for those who are caught.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenheart View Post
Also, ticket prices aren't rising? In which parallel universe is that true? The only thing which hasn't changed is merch prices.
Two people already called me on this, and provided back up facts from what appears to be first hand experience while doing so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenheart View Post
Several. I haven't heard those albums.
Good for you. I personally don't see the harm in pirating those albums since there's no other way to get them, and i'm sure bands themselves would rather people hear them for free than not hear them at all if there's no other legal way to acquire them. But that's your prerogative. If nothing else, good for you for sticking to your guns in that regard even if it means missing out on music from a band you like.

Tell me something though, if you were able to find such albums used in a used CD store, would you buy them? Because the bands and record labels aren't getting anything off of that used album sale. Not only that, you're also rewarding someone else for buying that music second hand. Likely the store, who previously would have given a certain amount of money to the person selling that album. Which could have happened after that person proactively ripped said CD onto his/her computer leaving a digital copy that he/she can still listen to, which legally is allowed since it would be for personal use.

Last edited by AnthG; 12-28-2013 at 05:59 PM.
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  #817  
Old 12-28-2013, 06:03 PM
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Maideneer Maideneer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
Tell me something though, if you were able to find such albums used in a used CD store, would you buy them? Because the bands and record labels aren't getting anything off of that used album sale. Not only that, you're also rewarding someone else for buying that music second hand. Likely the store, who previously would have given a certain amount of money to the person selling that album. Which could have happened after that person proactively ripped said CD onto his/her computer leaving a digital copy that he/she can still listen to, which legally is allowed since it would be for personal use.
Sorry to interject here but this gets in to a whole other realm. You're implying that a used CD store is selling potentially "hot" merchandise like a bootleg watch dealer on the street. That's a bit of a crazy stretch there honestly. Anything sold on the secondary market doesn't directly benefit the original source except in cases of anything that needs maintenance...aka I need spare parts for this machinery or piece of equipment and even then there are non-OEM manufacturers. At least the retail store though benefits from your purchase, I don't see how piracy/theft whatever you wanna call it benefits things for anyone, it just raises the cost of everything. On the off chance one spends $ on a concert ticket because "ooh I liked that pirated CD" that's not the norm and is few and far between.
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  #818  
Old 12-28-2013, 06:17 PM
AnthG AnthG is offline
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The issue is still the same though, with the creator of the product (in this case, the artist and record company) not receiving compensation for a person receiving it. The retailer benefits from it, but with new CDs they pay the record label or distributor for those CDs before they sell them to customers. They're doing the same thing with used CDs by paying the person selling it to them, but that person was not the creator of the product.

And unlike the secondary market for other products, where once that product changes hands the original owner has no access to it unless he purchases another one, CDs don't have that restriction with the ability to rip it to .mp3 or any other digital format. So it has the same effect as distributing that album for free if you legally purchased it.

Scenario 1: Person buys a CD, listens to it for how many days/weeks/months/years, legally creates digital copy, sells it to CD store, CD store sells it to customer 2. Result: 2 customers have the album with the artist and label only receiving proper compensation for 1 customer.

Scenario 2: Person buys a CD, creates digital copy, distributes digital copy to another person for free. Result: 2 customers have the album with the artist and label only receiving proper compensation for 1 customer.

And in scenario 2, which has been established is the morally wrong scenario, the person who bought the CD and distributing it is not receiving any compensation for doing so. In Scenario 1, they're receiving compensation when they sell it to the used CD store, however small it might be.

Also unlike the secondary market for other products where the wear and turn on them drastically diminishes the quality and performance of the product by the time it changes hands, CDs can still work perfectly. There's the issue of the artwork and packaging getting damaged, but the main attraction, the music, is still there. There's risks of scratching, but that's hardly an issue any more. I've ripped many scratched CDs onto my computer with the resulting mp3 files working flawlessly.

I also don't know what you mean by fans downloading music and buying a concert ticket for that same band "not the norm", as it appears to be happening all the time. There are people on this message board who have attested to doing so. And if it weren't the case, that wouldn't explain why a band can say, only sell 10,000 copies of their album but will still play in front of 500 people a night on their 30-show headlining tour.

Last edited by AnthG; 12-28-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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  #819  
Old 12-28-2013, 06:29 PM
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Maideneer Maideneer is offline
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Used record stores also sell new stuff too so they have full label support in addition to labels purchasing ad buys and endcap space in these stores too. They also send them their marketing materials and promo copies to spin in these stores too...so there are positive side effects to secondary stores like this. Maybe the guy walks in to a store and wants a Pantera CD for $3.99 used but along the way finds a brand new Slayer box set for full price...win all around. Marketing $ are long gone and spent for a record released in 1994 so having someone holding a physical product 20 years later is better than no one. To a label all things considered they would rather have 100 used CD stores out there than 100 teenagers distributing music online.
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  #820  
Old 12-28-2013, 06:36 PM
AnthG AnthG is offline
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Looking at the bigger picture of a used CD purchase that way, to me, isn't all that different than looking at a bigger picture of someone downloading 1 album from a band, where they may go on to become a fan and buy multiple concert tickets and merchandise items. The key word is may. Just as a music downloader may buy concert tickets and merch and possibly even a physical copy of that same album they downloaded, they may just be content with having that one album sit on their computer for their listening and have no desire to see the band live or buy a tshirt even if they love the album. Just like a person who buys that used Pantera CD may buy a brand new Slayer box set, that person may also just be content with that used Pantera CD.
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