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  #801  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:30 PM
Onioner Onioner is offline
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The distinction between copying and so called "actual theft" of CDs is so fricken minute. CDs are cheap as fuck to manufacture; the fact that a copy is not physically missing doesn't make it not stolen, it's the fact that one acquired a product that is supposed to have a set market value without the consent of and without any benefit to the producers and the merchants of said product that makes it theft.

When you pirate a CD you steal let's say, a total of ten dollars from the band, the label, a distro and a merchant (record store, Amazon, whatever) divided up whatever way. That's cash that the makers and distributors of a product don't have, for a product that you do have. It's stealing. Like straight up, it's stealing. Screw political correctness, arguments otherwise are inherently fucking retarded.
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  #802  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Onioner View Post
the fact that a copy is not physically missing doesn't make it not stolen, it's the fact that one acquired a product that is supposed to have a set market value without the consent of and without any benefit to the producers and the merchants of said product
= Piracy, or copyright infringement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
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  #803  
Old 12-27-2013, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BloodoftheKings View Post
One thing I will say is that there's plenty of artist that I have bought albums/tickets from who I never would have gotten into in the first place if I never pirated their music.
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  #804  
Old 12-27-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
= Piracy, or copyright infringement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement
Well no shit, according to legal semantics not all copyright infringement can be considered theft. Also not all rectangles are squares.

I'm not talking about Colloquial Terminology (yep, I can read Wikipedia too!), I'm talking about the inherent idea of music piracy. You're taking something that isn't yours without permission or compensation. That's what we all learned as stealing when we were like five years old. I don't care if you're in Sweden, the States or wherever you choose to have your copyright law defined. You're stealing.

If you own up to it and truly don't give a shit, good for you. If you've discovered a lot of great music because of it, good for you again. But I mean come on, trying to give it another label that has less of a negative connotation in order to make yourself feel like less of a dick is cowardly and lame.
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  #805  
Old 12-27-2013, 07:16 PM
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I don't think it has less of a negative connotation at all. They're both illegal and immoral activities that have negative consequences for those who are caught. I've outlined my argument about this thing already, and it's that piracy =/= theft. Period. You're not stealing, you're pirating, infringing on copyright, etc. Yeah, it has the same effect on the person who it's against. So do first degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. Someone died either way, but the consequences for one action is significantly different from the other.
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  #806  
Old 12-27-2013, 08:00 PM
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And please, ticket prices and merch prices have always been sky high. They're not getting higher at all. In fact, in some cases they're getting cheaper. I've never been to a show before this past year for signed bands on mid-sized labels where bands were only charging $15 for a t-shirt. Big arena bands and bands on touring festivals like Warped and Ozzfest would always be charging $40 before p2p filesharing became an issue, because people are willing to pay that much.
They have not always been high. In fact, arena shows used to be affordable to the point where one could easily go to a dozen a year or more.

Case in point: Van Halen

1978: $6.00
1979: $8.50
1980: $8.75
1981: $9.75
1982: $12.50
1984: $13.50
1986: $16.50
1988: $18.50
1988 (Monsters of Rock): $27.50
1991: $22.50
1993: $25.50
1995: $28.50
1998: $35.00

The pre-P2P years. While ticket prices did indeed go up, it was incremental. A few bucks for every tour. If those rates continued, you'd be paying in the neighborhood of about $80 for a prime seat to any arena show by any major band that currently charges at least a buck and a half for anything near the stage (VH, Journey, Eagles, Neil Young, Fleetwood Mac, etc.)

Unfortunately, we live in a world where Ticketbastard/Live Nation/the almighty dollar rules harshly over us peasant folk and there's no way around it. If you intend on making a living in the music business these days, it certainly isn't going to be because of selling records.
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  #807  
Old 12-27-2013, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthG View Post
And please, ticket prices and merch prices have always been sky high. They're not getting higher at all. In fact, in some cases they're getting cheaper. I've never been to a show before this past year for signed bands on mid-sized labels where bands were only charging $15 for a t-shirt. Big arena bands and bands on touring festivals like Warped and Ozzfest would always be charging $40 before p2p filesharing became an issue, because people are willing to pay that much.
Re-hee-hee-ally now. Is that so? Ozzfest & Warped tour had only been around for 2-3 years before Napster showed up. I went to Ozzfest '99. I spent $70 on a primo seat for Black Sabbath, Rob Zombie, Slayer, Fear Factory and more. Shirts were no more than $25 I guarantee you.

I saw Bruce Dickinson in 1997 with Geezer Butler as the opener in NYC for $10 bucks...face value. Do you really think that would ever be the case today?

Ditto for In Flames at L'amour, with Moonspell opening. $10. I bought a long sleeve Colony sweater...$20.

The 2 Maiden goddamn reunion shows in NYC in 1999 were only $32 for GA floor, today $32 is the "convenience fee" for 2 tickets. My July 2012 seated side stage ticket in New Jersey was $88.50...almost triple for an inferior seat.

The Megadeth show 2 weeks ago here was around $70 and they had a 13 song setlist. Megadeth has had like 78 legs of a U.S. tour this year because it's the only way to make income nowadays with a t-shirt priced at $35-$40. Right after 9/11, Megadeth played a 2 night stint here, I payed $30 for each show and they played 24-25 songs each night.

So you telling me that tickets aren't getting more expensive is absolute insanity.
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  #808  
Old 12-27-2013, 09:09 PM
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I bought a Papa Roach shirt at Ozzfest 2001 (I was 13, don't judge me) for $40. yes I know Napster and such had been around for a year or two but records were still selling well at that time. So in 12 years I haven't seen a huge increase in merch prices when CD sales now compared to then are drastically lower. Plus like PVH5150 mentioned, a lot of the sky high ticket prices are because of ticketmaster and live nation charging ridiculous fees on tickets (though i'm not sure if your ticket prices you were giving are including that). And can't some of the blame for increasing ticket and merch prices be placed on just simple inflation?

I mean you said In Flames were only selling shirts for $10 during the Colony era (I assume it was during this time, correct me if i'm wrong), as opposed to probably $25-$35 now depending on the tour they're on. Are you saying that's primarily because of CD sales being down? Because I guarantee you, while I don't have any hard number in front of me, that their later albums (say from Reroute to Remain onwards) have sold a lot more copies in North America than the albums before that.

Last edited by AnthG; 12-27-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  #809  
Old 12-27-2013, 09:59 PM
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As a percentage, Ticketmaster fees are almost no higher per ticket now than they were in the 90's. Bruce Dickinson ticket @ $10 was hit with a $2.50 fee, that's 25% of face value. My Ghost ticket this year was $20 with a $5.30 fee, that's 26.5%. Opeth this year was $29.50 with a fee of $5.15, that's 17.5%.

Ticket prices aren't higher because of TM, inflation as I said does have some part in it, as it always will with all products. But you damn well better bet it's because of the attempt to make up losses where album sales used to be...why do you think you see all these ridiculous VIP packages everywhere now, even for the most B and C rate bands. They need new income streams now that no one is buying their music.
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  #810  
Old 12-27-2013, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodoftheKings View Post
I download albums sometimes but I don't think it's generally an ok thing to do. One thing I will say is that there's plenty of artist that I have bought albums/tickets from who I never would have gotten into in the first place if I never pirated their music.

I agree with this as well.
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