Musical truths you've recently gleaned

[mankvill]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

Go on, name 3 better.

Dave Hunt!
Travis Ryan!
James Lee!

In my humble opinion.

[DethMaiden]

Originally Posted by mankvill

Dave Hunt!
Travis Ryan!
James Lee!

In my humble opinion.

There's lots of different styles for death vocals. For clarity, I'll take Åkerfeldt, Schuldiner, and Johann Hegg from Amon Amarth any day but tons of other guys just have really cool voices. Impossible to pick.

[bt11763]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

Firstly, as professional musicians (which I am not), there's a certain obligation towards sounding good. Clearly you wouldn't listen to a Death Metal album by me because I'm not a Metal musician. I'm merely critiquing professional musicians, who as musicians, should acknowledge constructive criticism.

I can admit that growling does take some measure of talent. Many of my favourite albums have harsh vocals that do a fine job of flowing with the music. However, don't try to tell me or anyone versed in music that growling takes anywhere near the amount of talent that a singer must strive for. Saying that a vocalist like Chuck Schuldiner is on par with someone like Daniel Gildenlow, Rob Halford etc. is a very bold statement that is wrong in my eyes.

Point is, it's much harder to be good singer than it is to be a good growler. If you like growling, then that's a musical opinion - but the musical truth is that Pavarotti > the guy from Amon Amarth at vocalizing. Could Pavarotti growl? Maybe. Could Quorthon sing Nessun Dorma? Unlikely.

And on that topic, the most talented Metal vocalist of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SclJmnRMLnQ

you are so misconceived it hurts me. i will begin this by saying I am a vocalist and i do not sing cleanly, it is a talent i do not possess to the point where I am comfortable using it artistically, but it is something i am progressing.

That being said, there are many differences between an opera singer and what i strive to do. For one, opera singers are classically trained and have the hundreds of years of proven, strict methods to achieve what they can. Many extreme vocalists simply dive in to it without understanding their instrument, resulting in a complete destruction of their throats and talent, or to them sounding like shit.

Here is where I will agree with you. There are a large number of extreme vocalists whom sound awful but somehow still make a living off of it. But that is because sadly, their genre allows such a thing. And that irks me, because they put so little work and talent into building their instrument and reap the rewards they do not deserve. And you are absolutely right that Pavoratti is leaps and bounds a better musician than Johan Hegg. But this is because they are not in the same field as one another, and Johan has had no where near the same classical exposure and training opportunities that Pavoratti has.

But this is where it gets interesting.

First and formost, I believe what you are suffering from a case of severe taste difference, which is fine. But to go as far as to say that all of these people are devoid of any talent is just absurd and uncalled for.

That being said, the concept of music is always growing and changing. Extreme vocalists of today are still pioneering their own sound and techniques, and if it holds steady (which i have every feeling it would, but in the prospective of time this genre of music is still extremely infantile) these techniques will become learned and taught, not too different from how the idea of classical vocalization has been taught. And it already has begun.

I have gone with the route of teaching myself to use my throat as an instrument in the way I have chosen. It is not perfect, but the results have been extraordinary. The warm ups and techniques that I use are almost identical to that of any other professional singer, with a few different and new traits added in. But when it comes down to it, i just apply these techniques in a different way than Rob Halford or what have you.

Essentially, you are entitled to your opinions but I take great offense to hear that you can say something as ridiculous as all of these people are not talented or comparable to those you see as respectable vocalists. I respect your opinion, but you have to give credit and appreciate what you clearly, in my opinion, do not fully understand.


/rant

[youngandaspiring]

Originally Posted by bt11763

you are so misconceived it hurts me. i will begin this by saying I am a vocalist and i do not sing cleanly, it is a talent i do not possess to the point where I am comfortable using it artistically, but it is something i am progressing.

That being said, there are many differences between an opera singer and what i strive to do. For one, opera singers are classically trained and have the hundreds of years of proven, strict methods to achieve what they can. Many extreme vocalists simply dive in to it without understanding their instrument, resulting in a complete destruction of their throats and talent, or to them sounding like shit.

Here is where I will agree with you. There are a large number of extreme vocalists whom sound awful but somehow still make a living off of it. But that is because sadly, their genre allows such a thing. And that irks me, because they put so little work and talent into building their instrument and reap the rewards they do not deserve. And you are absolutely right that Pavoratti is leaps and bounds a better musician than Johan Hegg. But this is because they are not in the same field as one another, and Johan has had no where near the same classical exposure and training opportunities that Pavoratti has.

But this is where it gets interesting.

First and formost, I believe what you are suffering from a case of severe taste difference, which is fine. But to go as far as to say that all of these people are devoid of any talent is just absurd and uncalled for.

That being said, the concept of music is always growing and changing. Extreme vocalists of today are still pioneering their own sound and techniques, and if it holds steady (which i have every feeling it would, but in the prospective of time this genre of music is still extremely infantile) these techniques will become learned and taught, not too different from how the idea of classical vocalization has been taught. And it already has begun.

I have gone with the route of teaching myself to use my throat as an instrument in the way I have chosen. It is not perfect, but the results have been extraordinary. The warm ups and techniques that I use are almost identical to that of any other professional singer, with a few different and new traits added in. But when it comes down to it, i just apply these techniques in a different way than Rob Halford or what have you.

Essentially, you are entitled to your opinions but I take great offense to hear that you can say something as ridiculous as all of these people are not talented or comparable to those you see as respectable vocalists. I respect your opinion, but you have to give credit and appreciate what you clearly, in my opinion, do not fully understand.


/rant

Firstly, at no point did I say extreme vocalists were talentless. I thought I made it clear that I do enjoy harsh vocals, and when done well they can really add to a song, especially when juxtaposed with contrasting vocal styles.

My point of view is clear - it takes a lot more skill and time to become a fine singer than it does to become a 'fine' growler, a point that you seemingly agree with.

[youngandaspiring]

Originally Posted by mankvill

Dave Hunt!
Travis Ryan!
James Lee!

In my humble opinion.

My favourite growling performance of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twYDtssbAxc

[Maiden33]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

Firstly, at no point did I say extreme vocalists were talentless. I thought I made it clear that I do enjoy harsh vocals, and when done well they can really add to a song, especially when juxtaposed with contrasting vocal styles.

This album. You need to check it out if you've never heard it.

[DethMaiden]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

My favourite growling performance of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twYDtssbAxc

THE EYE OF HORUS IS PREPARED TO ATTACK THEE!

[mankvill]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

My favourite growling performance of all time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twYDtssbAxc

VERY EPIC

Especially live.

[youngandaspiring]

Originally Posted by Maiden33

This album. You need to check it out if you've never heard it.

I'm listening to the title track now. It's not bad, I will check them out.

EDIT - you lucky bastards got to see Nile live? I'm green with jealousy.

[bt11763]

Originally Posted by youngandaspiring

My point of view is clear - it takes a lot more skill and time to become a fine singer than it does to become a 'fine' growler, a point that you seemingly agree with.

i disagree, but i see why you think that way.

nowadays it seems like everyone and their mother believe they could be a vocalist for a death metal band, which leaves a lot of crap and lack of talent. i do love a lot of bands that would seem hypocritical to what i'm trying to explain but that is beside the point.

but i believe that for anyone who really could possess the talent to be a "fine" growler actually has a more daunting task ahead of them than someone who had the talent or skills to be come a "fine" singer.

this is because it is a territory that has no formal training or techniques, which makes it very dangerous. you could ask a great deal of extreme vocalists "DUDE HOW DO YOU SOUND LIKE THAT OHMAGAWD" and they'll say something that will most likely boil down to "i don't really know it just fell into place one day." this is dangerous because many people could severely harm their throats and/or completely embarrass themselves because it just sounds awful.

as compared to a more "traditional" vocal style, these techniques have been around much longer and there are more ways to be taught how to achieve this talent.

i'm not saying i think of this style any less, i know for me i could probably never be as talented as bruce dickinson or whatever, and i love these genres just as much. but i believe that if you think of the extreme style in this way it will help you understand my point of view, if not agree with it.