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mankvill
03-10-2009, 09:24 PM
I hear this term thrown around a lot and right now, I think it's pretty lame.

Wikipedia says the following bands are "NWOAHM":

All That Remains
As I Lay Dying
Atreyu
Avenged Sevenfold
Hatebreed
Killswitch Engage
Lamb Of God
Shadows Fall
Slipknot
Trivium
Unearth

among others. To me, it sounds like "NWOAHM" is just something to call stupid metalcore bands without them getting uppity about it.

To be honest, I think "New Wave Of American Heavy Metal" should sound like what Death Magnetic sounds like. DM isn't thrash or heavy metal. It's just metal. Too heavy for rock, but enough "groove" to be something else. I also think a couple more bands should get labeled as this, such as Machine Head and maybe Mastodon.

Thoughts?

ChildrenofSodom
03-10-2009, 09:28 PM
Machine Head and Mastodon dont sound anything alike. It could be argued that metalcore is the newest wave of American metal, based on the size and popularity of the genre.

mankvill
03-10-2009, 09:34 PM
Machine Head and Mastodon dont sound anything alike. It could be argued that metalcore is the newest wave of American metal, based on the size and popularity of the genre.

I know they don't sound anything alike, but I think they should get that tag because I don't really think they fit into any other genre.

I don't want the tag just to be another word for metalcore. :(

Maiden33
03-10-2009, 09:37 PM
I've heard the term used before, and I think it has a definite application, even if it's not the most grammatically accurate term possible. I'm not going to get anal about the genre not being called what it should be, the general label is fine with me, especially since it gives me a great way to classify a lot of the bands that piss me off the most these days. :D

ChildrenofSodom
03-10-2009, 09:39 PM
I know they don't sound anything alike, but I think they should get that tag because I don't really think they fit into any other genre.

I don't want the tag just to be another word for metalcore. :(

But norwegian black metal sounds the same, NWOBHM sounds the same, American thrash sounds the same.....I dont think you can lump bands that sound completely dissimilar from the majority of other bands that were popular at the same time into said genre.

ChildrenofSodom
03-10-2009, 09:40 PM
I've heard the term used before, and I think it has a definite application, even if it's not the most grammatically accurate term possible. I'm not going to get anal about the genre not being called what it should be, the general label is fine with me, especially since it gives me a great way to classify a lot of the bands that piss me off the most these days. :D

So is Evergrey power metal?

Maiden33
03-10-2009, 09:41 PM
So is Evergrey power metal?

I wish you would stop this nonsense. Absolutely nothing about Evergrey is even power-metal-esque.

overkiller
03-10-2009, 09:50 PM
I think it's also an authenticating move, bullshit new bands like those mentioned above might seek to assert their connection to quality bands of the past by borrowing/varying the NWOBHM acronym.

mankvill
03-10-2009, 09:56 PM
But norwegian black metal sounds the same, NWOBHM sounds the same, American thrash sounds the same.....I dont think you can lump bands that sound completely dissimilar from the majority of other bands that were popular at the same time into said genre.

Yeah. I guess you're right.

SomewhereInTime72
03-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Absolutely nothing about Evergrey is even power-metal-esque.

:confused: :wtf: I love Evergrey, but seriously? Very power metal... Definitely more of a prog-metal band in general, but how can you say that they don't have power metal elements? :eyes:

edit: it's like saying Symphony X have no power metal in them (maybe to a lesser extent, but similar)

edit2: On topic, I've always assumed the NWOAHM thing applied to metalcore and metalcore-esque bands, like Shadows Fall and the like. Aka, stuff I'm pretty unable to get into.

ChildrenofSodom
03-10-2009, 10:08 PM
I wish you would stop this nonsense. Absolutely nothing about Evergrey is even power-metal-esque.

jaja..I was making a joke, calm down. You fall so easily into my hands, like an t-piece between two green and red s-pieces, side-by-side.

Maiden33
03-10-2009, 10:21 PM
jaja..I was making a joke, calm down. You fall so easily into my hands, like an t-piece between two green and red s-pieces, side-by-side.

Tetris much?

Maiden33
03-10-2009, 10:30 PM
:confused: :wtf: I love Evergrey, but seriously? Very power metal... Definitely more of a prog-metal band in general, but how can you say that they don't have power metal elements? :eyes:

edit: it's like saying Symphony X have no power metal in them (maybe to a lesser extent, but similar)

edit2: On topic, I've always assumed the NWOAHM thing applied to metalcore and metalcore-esque bands, like Shadows Fall and the like. Aka, stuff I'm pretty unable to get into.

Symphony X is a fuck-ton more power metal than anything Evergrey have ever done. Aside from the cheesy quality of a song like "Nosferatu", or some of the instrumental work every once in a great while, there is nothing power metal-esque about Evergrey. Tom S. Englund couldn't be any more different from a power metal vocalist, and the band's approaches to lyrics and emotional content in their music couldn't be any further from the genre. Evergrey have always had a very morose, gothic approach to their work (well, first 5 albums), and Tom S. Englund has spoken out multiple times about his absolute distaste for all power metal cliches, none of which the band themselves have.
Symphony X still have all of their Yngwie and speed/shred-metal elements, as well as their super-mythology/fantasy-charged lyrics. None of the things that make Symphony X power metal-esque (which they definitely are) are shared by Evergrey.
Evergrey are my fourth-favorite band and Symphony X crack the top dozen, and I am absolutely nuts about dissecting music. I have a pretty firm grasp on what I'm talking about. I have never met someone who thought Evergrey were in the least bit power metal aside from like 3 people on this board.

SomewhereInTime72
03-10-2009, 10:49 PM
Symphony X is a fuck-ton more power metal than anything Evergrey have ever done. Aside from the cheesy quality of a song like "Nosferatu", or some of the instrumental work every once in a great while, there is nothing power metal-esque about Evergrey. Tom S. Englund couldn't be any more different from a power metal vocalist, and the band's approaches to lyrics and emotional content in their music couldn't be any further from the genre. Evergrey have always had a very morose, gothic approach to their work (well, first 5 albums), and Tom S. Englund has spoken out multiple times about his absolute distaste for all power metal cliches, none of which the band themselves have.
Symphony X still have all of their Yngwie and speed/shred-metal elements, as well as their super-mythology/fantasy-charged lyrics. None of the things that make Symphony X power metal-esque (which they definitely are) are shared by Evergrey.
Evergrey are my fourth-favorite band and Symphony X crack the top dozen, and I am absolutely nuts about dissecting music. I have a pretty firm grasp on what I'm talking about. I have never met someone who thought Evergrey were in the least bit power metal aside from like 3 people on this board.

Well, I mean, I don't perceive Evergrey of having any power metal cliche's, just that a lot of the instrumental (less often lyrical, but I mean Alien abductions is kinda power metally ;)) parts. Symphony X is obviously way more power metal, but they were the first example I could think of...

I dunno, I feel that they have some power metal elements... I guess I'm just not an expert. :boohoo:

Maiden33
03-10-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, I mean, I don't perceive Evergrey of having any power metal cliche's, just that a lot of the instrumental (less often lyrical, but I mean Alien abductions is kinda power metally ;)) parts. Symphony X is obviously way more power metal, but they were the first example I could think of...

I dunno, I feel that they have some power metal elements... I guess I'm just not an expert. :boohoo:

Yeah, I've always felt the whole alien-abduction thing is a little silly, but I do really enjoy their spin on it. The average band would write about alien abduction from a far more sci-fi point of view, but Evergrey took the subject and turned it into an emotionally charged issue, about a person struggling with memories and feelings of have being abducted, and the alienation they suffer because no one will believe them, not even their family or closest friends. The song "Misled" from In Search of Truth is a perfect example of this.

I'm not militantly against anyone saying that Evergrey have something in their music that is power metal-esque, but to use that subgenre as the dominant description of their music is, to me, retarded.

TonyD
03-10-2009, 10:58 PM
I never really liked the term "sludge", but I'm diggin the sludgy prog/hardcore punk bands that have become more popular due to Mastodon's semi-mainstream breakthrough.

SomewhereInTime72
03-10-2009, 11:08 PM
Yeah, I've always felt the whole alien-abduction thing is a little silly, but I do really enjoy their spin on it. The average band would write about alien abduction from a far more sci-fi point of view, but Evergrey took the subject and turned it into an emotionally charged issue, about a person struggling with memories and feelings of have being abducted, and the alienation they suffer because no one will believe them, not even their family or closest friends. The song "Misled" from In Search of Truth is a perfect example of this.

I'm not militantly against anyone saying that Evergrey have something in their music that is power metal-esque, but to use that subgenre as the dominant description of their music is, to me, retarded.

In Search of Truth is awesome, for sure...

I was just a bit confused when you said they were not power metal at all. :tongue:
I never really liked the term "sludge", but I'm diggin the sludgy prog/hardcore punk bands that have become more popular due to Mastodon's semi-mainstream breakthrough.

Yeah, I don't even understand the term "sludge"... although I'm quite fond of the genre. I think it probably deserves a better name. :D

mankvill
03-10-2009, 11:26 PM
jaja..I was making a joke, calm down. You fall so easily into my hands, like an t-piece between two green and red s-pieces, side-by-side.

i seriously can't stop playing that fucking tetris website oh my god

mankvill
03-10-2009, 11:29 PM
I never really liked the term "sludge", but I'm diggin the sludgy prog/hardcore punk bands that have become more popular due to Mastodon's semi-mainstream breakthrough.

Perhaps you'd like Mistress, the side band of Mick and Dave from Anaal Nathrakh. They've been called sludge/grindcore.

TonyD
03-10-2009, 11:38 PM
Yeah, I don't even understand the term "sludge"... although I'm quite fond of the genre. I think it probably deserves a better name. :D
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's interchangeable with "stoner", but I don't think that's much of an improvement.

Perhaps you'd like Mistress, the side band of Mick and Dave from Anaal Nathrakh. They've been called sludge/grindcore.

Not really what I had in mind. Totally different branch of the hardcore tree.
I'm talking Baroness, Kylesa, Torche, etc...

Maiden33
03-11-2009, 11:22 AM
In Search of Truth is awesome, for sure...


In Search of Truth is my favorite Evergrey album and one of my 15 or so favorite albums of all time.

ravenheart
03-11-2009, 12:33 PM
fuck-ton

I'm using that.

ravenheart
03-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's interchangeable with "stoner", but I don't think that's much of an improvement.

Nah. Stoner is Kyuss, Spiritual Beggars, Roadsaw and so forth.

Sludge is Crowbar etc. Dirgier stuff that's a lot less... precise?... than doom.

ravenheart
03-11-2009, 12:37 PM
On the NWOAHM front, I've always taken it to mean stuff like Lamb of God and Killswitch Engage. Where musically it's fairly traditional heavy technical metal, but vocally it's harsher.

SomewhereInTime72
03-11-2009, 12:58 PM
The way I see it, Sludge is basically the gross incestuous baby of Doom, Stoner, Hardcore, and Post-Rock. :eyes:

ChildrenofSodom
03-11-2009, 01:07 PM
The way I see it, Sludge is basically the gross incestuous baby of Doom, Stoner, Hardcore, and Post-Rock. :eyes:

See....I've heard sludge refer to BLS, Down, Eyehategod, etc......but I have also heard Kenoma, MOTA, Neurosis, and others called sludge.

TonyD
03-11-2009, 05:07 PM
Nah. Stoner is Kyuss, Spiritual Beggars, Roadsaw and so forth.

Sludge is Crowbar etc. Dirgier stuff that's a lot less... precise?... than doom.

So we're talking about stoner rock and sludge metal.

See....I've heard sludge refer to BLS, Down, Eyehategod, etc......but I have also heard Kenoma, MOTA, Neurosis, and others called sludge.

I don't know what you would call BLS, Down and Eyehategod other than southern hard rock, but they're definitely not sludge.

JRA
03-11-2009, 06:32 PM
If I may...


I think the fact that every fucking band that doesn't have a sound like Judas Priest has to have its own sub-genre is exactly what is killing metal. I remember listening to the commentary of get Thrashed and Rat Skates (yes, that Rat Skates) had mentioned that when everything started getting its own title, is when metal died for him, and now that I think about it, I can't help but agree with it. Just calling everything "metal" rather than getting its own name proves how vast and diverse the genre is. Some of you might say that the fact that there's so many sub-genres essentially the same thing, but the thing is, by giving a title for what you do, you're essentially trapping yourself in a corner, because when you decided to try something different, metal fans (open minded as they are) will turn their back on you.

As for terms like NWOBHM, I don't know who came up with that term but fuck them for doing so. It doesn't even really describe a sound, it's just telling you where the band came from! When you think about it, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, and Def Leppard were 3 completely different sounding bands, they all just happened to be from Britain. Wouldn't it have been easier for the music press to simply call that movement "the second generation of Heavy Metal?" Cos that's essentially what it was.

In conclusion, Opeth > faggot-ass sub-genres.

:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:

ravenheart
03-11-2009, 07:04 PM
I think sub-genres were necessary when you couldn't listen to stuff instantly on the web. There needed to be SOMETHING to tell people what a band sounded like. Fans of Iron Maiden are not necessarily going to be fans of Venom, so to call both simply 'metal' really wasn't going to help anyone.

Now we can just tap into MySpace and sample pretty much any band for free, it's a lot less necessary because we can decide for ourselves far easier, and far cheaper.

ChildrenofSodom
03-11-2009, 07:25 PM
I think sub-genres were necessary when you couldn't listen to stuff instantly on the web. There needed to be SOMETHING to tell people what a band sounded like. Fans of Iron Maiden are not necessarily going to be fans of Venom, so to call both simply 'metal' really wasn't going to help anyone.

Now we can just tap into MySpace and sample pretty much any band for free, it's a lot less necessary because we can decide for ourselves far easier, and far cheaper.

I think it still allows people to describe what they like. Instead of saying 'I like Godspeed You Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, Red Sparrowes, etc.) I can just say 'I like Post-rock.'

ChildrenofSodom
03-11-2009, 07:30 PM
If I may...


I think the fact that every fucking band that doesn't have a sound like Judas Priest has to have its own sub-genre is exactly what is killing metal. I remember listening to the commentary of get Thrashed and Rat Skates (yes, that Rat Skates) had mentioned that when everything started getting its own title, is when metal died for him, and now that I think about it, I can't help but agree with it. Just calling everything "metal" rather than getting its own name proves how vast and diverse the genre is. Some of you might say that the fact that there's so many sub-genres essentially the same thing, but the thing is, by giving a title for what you do, you're essentially trapping yourself in a corner, because when you decided to try something different, metal fans (open minded as they are) will turn their back on you.

As for terms like NWOBHM, I don't know who came up with that term but fuck them for doing so. It doesn't even really describe a sound, it's just telling you where the band came from! When you think about it, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, and Def Leppard were 3 completely different sounding bands, they all just happened to be from Britain. Wouldn't it have been easier for the music press to simply call that movement "the second generation of Heavy Metal?" Cos that's essentially what it was.

In conclusion, Opeth > faggot-ass sub-genres.

:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:

Lamb of God, Iron Maiden, Dragonforce, Burzum, Manowar, and Katatonia all sound vastly different. Dont you think 'metal' is too inclusive and it doesnt really give you an idea of what it sounds like? Sure, you could say 'metal sounds like this, this, and this, but then someone could give you the name of a metal band who does not utilize those techniques.

I think it could be argued that jazz bands sound enough alike, hip hop sounds enough alike, country sounds enough alike...but within 'metal', the vocal styles, guitar tones, bass, and drum styles are so VASTLY different, even though stupid non-metal noobs say 'it all sounds the same.'

ChildrenofSodom
03-11-2009, 07:34 PM
Lamb of God, Iron Maiden, Dragonforce, Burzum, Manowar, and Katatonia all sound vastly different. Dont you think 'metal' is too inclusive and it doesnt really give you an idea of what it sounds like? '

Example A: l was talking to a kid online about Ohio State, and I said that I liked heavy metal and he said 'yeah, me too..I'm going to see Killswitch Engage next week, and then Disturbed two weeks after that.' :facepalm:

Example B: "I like heavy metal music." "Yeah? What, like Slipknot and stuff?"

TonyD
03-11-2009, 07:46 PM
I can agree with JRA.
I really don't care what subgenre or even genre anything fits into, but we only really use it to describe a band or what we're into, at which point somebody else (myself included) feels obligated to say, "___ isn't ___ metal. It's more ___"

Maiden33
03-11-2009, 07:54 PM
There's something that needs to be said. There is a difference between classifying sub-genres and being anal about classifying music, and actually letting the labels and classifications hinder your enjoyment of the music. It's one thing to classify music and another to not listen to something because of how it's classified. Arguing that a certain band isn't a particular sub-genre is fine as long as you don't let it change your opinion of them because of the outcome.

ChildrenofSodom
03-11-2009, 08:03 PM
There's something that needs to be said. There is a difference between classifying sub-genres and being anal about classifying music, and actually letting the labels and classifications hinder your enjoyment of the music. It's one thing to classify music and another to not listen to something because of how it's classified. Arguing that a certain band isn't a particular sub-genre is fine as long as you don't let it change your opinion of them because of the outcome.

I hate to agree with Jeff here, but I do. Just because you label band X in genre X, that doesnt mean that is all you listen to. Thats partly why it pisses me off when people on here do fulfill the stereotype Jeff has introduced, of 'I dont want to be a close minded metal head, I want diversity.' Bullshit! Metal is the most diverse genre of music there is! Get over yourselves!

mankvill
03-11-2009, 08:04 PM
NWOAHM is a retarded term and those bands should just suck it up and stick with the metalcore tag.

rjturtle9
03-11-2009, 08:07 PM
I hate to agree with Jeff here, but I do. Just because you label band X in genre X, that doesnt mean that is all you listen to. Thats partly why it pisses me off when people on here do fulfill the stereotype Jeff has introduced, of 'I dont want to be a close minded metal head, I want diversity.' Bullshit! Metal is the most diverse genre of music there is! Get over yourselves!

wow i'm really late in this thread

yeah i agree with this. i listen to all types of genres. you should only judge bands based on how good they are and if they fit your personal tastes, not what part of the town called metal they come from.

SomewhereInTime72
03-11-2009, 08:13 PM
I think it could be argued that jazz bands sound enough alike, hip hop sounds enough alike, country sounds enough alike...

no
Bullshit! Metal is the most diverse genre of music there is! Get over yourselves!

no

Pointing out those two, because everything else you said was pretty much right.

Sinfulsot
03-11-2009, 08:35 PM
With respect to Disturbed and Slipknot, they are two bands that fall under the metal umbrella, if you don't consider what sub genre each band falls into. A previous thread labelled both of these bands as nu-metal. given that they've progressed since then, perhaps even evolved, they are labelled as metal even if the most picky of metalheads would or would not label them as such; however, I would agree that each band does exemplify some metal elements.

Another way to look at both Disturbed & Slipknot is that they are just rock bands (with or without a gimmick) that came out during the nu-metal movement and thus the label; similarly, Alice in Chains isn't really grunge, yet is labelled as such because of their popularity when the grunge movement swept the nation during the previous decade.

I've noticed that some bands get lumped under the metal umbrella and due to a lack of music analysis skills, i couldn't tell you why. But when watching headbangers ball on mtv2 and i see a video for Priestess or Queens of the Stone Age, i have to wonder: who the hell is programming headbanger's ball? I would consider neither band to be a metal band. Both are rock bands, Priestess seems to have some metal elements, but they seem more driven by a blues tip (metal came from blues, blues is not necessarily metal). QOTSA may exemplify some metal elements, but seem to have more of a rock band feel.

As to this New Wave of American Heavy Metal, I've also heard the term New Wave of American Thrash Metal. And i am assuming that the two aren't necessarily interchangeable. Thinking of metal in as general terms as possible, i would prefer to argue semantics in that it's the NEXT WAVE of American heavy metal, and this term can be applied to bands that may fall into one or more metal sub-genres, be it thrash, metalcore, whatever. JRA used the term "second generation". i say keep it more vague such that the acronym is preserved without making a big to do over when and who was next.

Granted, NWOBHM bands is specific because of their sound and country of origin, but it's been almost 30 years since these bands made their appearence. a lot's happened since then.

Crap. I lost my train of thought, plus i'm @werk and it's about quitting time. so, hopefully i've been constructive...

Maiden33
03-11-2009, 09:03 PM
I hate to agree with Jeff here, but I do. Just because you label band X in genre X, that doesnt mean that is all you listen to. Thats partly why it pisses me off when people on here do fulfill the stereotype Jeff has introduced, of 'I dont want to be a close minded metal head, I want diversity.' Bullshit! Metal is the most diverse genre of music there is! Get over yourselves!

Thank you.

I'm not really positive metal is the most diverse genre out there. I'd love to say that because it's the music I love, but I feel that saying that is being biased being that I know this genre FAR more than I know any other. Even within metal, there are people that condemn bands within certain sub-genres when they sound little like the music the sub-genre is condemned for, and that persists to piss me off.

powerslave_85
03-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Thats partly why it pisses me off when people on here do fulfill the stereotype Jeff has introduced, of 'I dont want to be a close minded metal head, I want diversity.'Ugh, not this shit again.

SomewhereInTime72
03-11-2009, 09:37 PM
before the shitstorm i'm just going to throw this out there:

LISTEN TO MUSIC, NOT GENRES

Maiden33
03-11-2009, 09:49 PM
before the shitstorm i'm just going to throw this out there:

LISTEN TO MUSIC, NOT GENRES

I agree. I feel my general feeling here always gets misunderstood. I don't care what people listen to, as long as those people don't care what I listen to. Also, I don't care what people listen to, if they don't try to act like they're superior to other people because of it. I don't have anything against people on this board discussing non-metal, but I do have a problem with people acting like they are superior because they do.

SirLardsAlot
03-11-2009, 09:50 PM
You fall so easily into my hands, like an t-piece between two green and red s-pieces, side-by-side.Pretty much the best post ever.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 03:57 AM
no


no

Pointing out those two, because everything else you said was pretty much right.

Really? Name two other genres with as-distinguishable subgenres as metal.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 04:05 AM
Ugh, not this shit again.

I'm not trying to start shit, but some of the posts in this thread have had the underlying message of 'You are closeminded if you only listen to metal.' Whereas I think the point can be made that within metal you can find a great diversity. I'd think a playlist of Virgin Black, Mastodon, Amon Amarth, Dio, Green Carnation, and Opeth would be just as diverse as, say, a playlist of Iron Maiden, The Decemberists, Fleet Foxes, Earth, Judas Priest, and Marvin Gaye.

I dont see why people have to shit on each other's musical tastes. Once again, get over yourselves, no one's opinion is so important on such a subjective topic to matter in the big scheme of things.

overkiller
03-12-2009, 06:56 AM
I just think it's hilarious when metal fans think that metal is the greatest and/or most diverse genre of music just because they're so fucking steeped in it.

zgodt
03-12-2009, 06:57 AM
I just think it's hilarious when metal fans think that metal is the greatest and/or most diverse genre of music just because they're so fucking steeped in it.

+1

Div
03-12-2009, 07:51 AM
Cameron, Jazz has alot of different subgenres, look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

ravenheart
03-12-2009, 08:32 AM
Example B: "I like heavy metal music." "Yeah? What, like Slipknot and stuff?"

Yeah, I get that a lot. So many people say "I like any music except heavy metal", because they think all metal is death and thrash. Wouldn't even know things like Dio exist.

Div
03-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Yeah, I get that a lot. So many people say "I like any music except heavy metal", because they think all metal is death and thrash. Wouldn't even know things like Dio exist.

yep. one of my friends met his girlfriend last semester, neither of them know much about metal, but there was one kid named matt who lived on their floor who was "metal" that would hang out with them alot. he just listened to black/death metal, mostly shitty bands like satyricon and dimmu borgir. i saw a picture of him on facebook one time, had his hair dyed black and gel'd up in 5 inch spikes, behind him was a big poster that just said "HEAVY FUCKING METAL" on it, and he was doing the "mega horns" (make a fist with each hand, stick your pinky fingers out, then move your hands together). i also heard he hates maiden because he says bruce is a "sellout" (wtf? :eyes:)

point of all this being, douchebags like this go around giving people impressions of metal, and it turns them off to looking into it further. i played overkill's "old school" in the car on the way to the movies last night and his girlfriend commented "wow that was really good, much better than anything matt ever played".

Maiden33
03-12-2009, 10:38 AM
I just think it's hilarious when metal fans think that metal is the greatest and/or most diverse genre of music just because they're so fucking steeped in it.

I never said it was the greatest/most diverse genre of music. I don't believe it necessarily is, and I said that it only seems that way because we're familiar with so many different forms of it.
The rest of this post is not directed at you, I just happened to quote you for the last bit. I won't say it's not the greatest genre of music though, because I don't get some sort of pleasure out of belittling the music I like. There are too many people out there who love to be humble and play into idea that there is so much out there that they don't understand, and thus they can't claim what they love is the best. I don't buy this. Over the course of my life thus far, I have been introduced to many different forms of music. I wasn't introduced to 100 metal bands at once, I found like two I liked, and I liked them enough to get into more. That could have been any other form of music had the music struck a chord with me. I wasn't trapped in a metal box since birth and acted like it was all I needed. I've given other forms of music a chance. Some I like, some I respect, some I can't stand. Thus, to me, the music I love is the greatest form of music in the world, to me. I don't need apologize for loving something, just because I'm guilt-tripped into it by other people.

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Really? Name two other genres with as-distinguishable subgenres as metal.

Jazz, Pop. edit: I mean, those two mostly win by seniority, when heavy metal has been around for almost a century, the way Jazz has, it'll probably have as many different offshoots and subgenres as Jazz does now.
I won't say it's not the greatest genre of music though, because I don't get some sort of pleasure out of belittling the music I like.

While I agree with you on the last part -no one should have to put down their preferred style of music- I also think it's absolutely ridiculous for anyone to say any genre of music is inherently better or worse than another. All genres have their fair share of genius and bullshit. (This includes nu-metal :D *runs and hides*).

I even think it's a bit ridiculous for someone to say they have a favorite genre or whatever, 'cause at least for me it boils down to this: it's just the genre of music where the majority of your favorite artists belong. Heavy metal would be the genre I identify with most, simply because heck, my two favorite bands are Maiden and Priest. In no way should that be an inclusive or exclusive thing though, and that's part of why I have found myself removed from any local "scene," metal or otherwise.

Fe Maiden
03-12-2009, 01:07 PM
If it looks good, eat it!

If it sounds good, listen to it!

Who gives a fuck what genre a particular artist is in? As long as you like it that is all that matters! Everyone has their own personal taste and opinions and most likely no 2 people will agree on everything they like. I hate it when I see people saying this or that artist or genre "sucks" because they don't like it themselves. Music is art and beauty is in the ear of the beholder as it may be said. I for one don't like music with growling vocals but I don''t think it sucks. It's just not my thing.

DethMaiden
03-12-2009, 01:13 PM
I think it's cute when I see this argument on here. No one here doesn't love metal. They wouldn't be here if they didn't. Is metal the most diverse genre? I don't know, can you tell metal when you hear it, regardless of subgenre? I'd say you can. Just like with any broad genre. But there are nuances that we can hear because we're so into metal than the untrained ear wouldn't know of. People who listen to a lot of jazz could discern the musician by the tone of the instruments; more than likely, none of us could. Classical is all lumped together even if it's arranged for wildly different groups of instruments, so there's that. Anything that can be on the radio seems to get the pop tag, but I couldn't find two artists with less in common than, say, Amy Winehouse and Phil Collins. Is metal diverse? Of course it is, but it is, in fact, closed-minded to say it is "the most" diverse, because we may only perceive it that way because our own tastes have the most diversity within that genre. If I had albums by hundreds of jazz artists like I do metal artists, I'd probably find the diversity there as well.

:2cents:

Maiden33
03-12-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm saying again now, I'm not trying to argue that metal is the most diverse genre out there. Like any other genre of music that has been around for any length of time, there are many different adaptations of it. Pop music from the 80s sounds absolutely nothing like pop music now, just like "classical" music varies greatly due to the massive time span and style of different composers.
I'm simply trying to make the point that I don't agree with certain people who inherently belittle music they enjoy because they think they have to adhere to some standard of open-mindedness. I fucking love metal, so I'm not going to sit here and say that it's just another average genre of music, because to me, it's THE genre of music, even if it isn't the only. I'm not saying I don't like other stuff, but I'm not going to act like I'm any less of a fan of the music I love because being "open-minded" is the cool thing to do.

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 02:53 PM
I'm not saying I don't like other stuff, but I'm not going to act like I'm any less of a fan of the music I love because being "open-minded" is the cool thing to do.
Why do the clever metalsetlists psychoanalysts always think this must be the reasoning?

overkiller
03-12-2009, 02:59 PM
I'm simply trying to make the point that I don't agree with certain people who inherently belittle music they enjoy because they think they have to adhere to some standard of open-mindedness. I fucking love metal, so I'm not going to sit here and say that it's just another average genre of music, because to me, it's THE genre of music, even if it isn't the only. I'm not saying I don't like other stuff, but I'm not going to act like I'm any less of a fan of the music I love because being "open-minded" is the cool thing to do.

Can I be completely honest here? I think this bullshit has been a straw-man since day one. I don't think ANYONE here belittles metal in order to seem more open-minded. I do think certain people (myself included, really) have belittled metal fans because of the endless whining of posts like this one, but ever since the whole Tegan and Sara debacle (and maybe before that), there's been this bullshit construct where certain members accuse other members, who are self-aware enough to realize that being so deeply immersed in metal can skew your perceptions about it, of "belittling" it.

Maiden33
03-12-2009, 03:04 PM
Are you guys aware I'm making a generalization? I'm not talking about this board in particular, I'm talking about a collective group of people in general. Don't be so damn defensive.

overkiller
03-12-2009, 03:07 PM
Are you guys aware I'm making a generalization? I'm not talking about this board in particular, I'm talking about a collective group of people in general. Don't be so damn defensive.

Ok, then I have no idea what you're talking about.

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 03:13 PM
Are you guys aware I'm making a generalization? I'm not talking about this board in particular, I'm talking about a collective group of people in general. Don't be so damn defensive.

Well I was certainly hoping you weren't trying to start up that debate now, I'm just confused about the reasoning behind it anyway, since I've definitely seen something along those lines used in this discussion on here. :tongue:

powerslave_85
03-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm not talking about this board in particular, I'm talking about a collective group of people in general.Uh-huh.

Maiden33
03-12-2009, 03:14 PM
Well I was certainly hoping you weren't trying to start up that debate now, I'm just confused about the reasoning behind it anyway, since I've definitely seen something along those lines used in this discussion on here. :tongue:

I didn't say it didn't necessarily include some people here, I just meant that it was about more than JUST those people. More of a general point rather than a personal attack. God knows I don't need to go looking for trouble on this board.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Doesn't pop mean popular?

And I think when it comes to other genres, yes, subgenres do exist...but do they co-exist at the same time, like most metal bands do?

overkiller
03-12-2009, 06:12 PM
And I think when it comes to other genres, yes, subgenres do exist...but do they co-exist at the same time, like most metal bands do?

You're not going to win this, just give up.

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Doesn't pop mean popular?

And I think when it comes to other genres, yes, subgenres do exist...but do they co-exist at the same time, like most metal bands do?

It's name derives from "popular music" but it really does exist as a genre of it's own.

Also, yes.

edit: Basically, metal doesn't have some mystical quality where it has more subdivisions than other genre umbrellas, though it feels like that probably to people who familiarize themselves mostly with metal, naturally. But things that are around for longer have just had more time... Metal can't win. :tongue:

SirLardsAlot
03-12-2009, 07:53 PM
I love this board.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 07:58 PM
You're not going to win this, just give up.

I'm not really trying to win. I'm just making points of conversation.... Quit being a douche.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 08:01 PM
Can I be completely honest here? I think this bullshit has been a straw-man since day one. I don't think ANYONE here belittles metal in order to seem more open-minded. I do think certain people (myself included, really) have belittled metal fans because of the endless whining of posts like this one, but ever since the whole Tegan and Sara debacle (and maybe before that), there's been this bullshit construct where certain members accuse other members, who are self-aware enough to realize that being so deeply immersed in metal can skew your perceptions about it, of "belittling" it.

You guys dont belittle metal, but you belittle people who dont like nonmetal. Yes, at first it was a retort against people bitching about Tegan and Sara, but its gotten to a point where even talking about how much you like metal over other genres gets you labeled ignorant and closeminded.

You guys like Tegan and Sara. We get it. Some of us dont. Jeff likes Progressive Power metal, some of us dont. It doesnt fucking matter. If we would quit trying to put our own tastes above the tastes of others, it would go alot smoother.

Maiden33
03-12-2009, 08:03 PM
I'm not really trying to win. I'm just making points of conversation.... Quit being a douche.

I'm doubting he knows how to. I'm with you. I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, I'm just here to discuss stuff.

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 08:05 PM
I'm doubting he knows how to. I'm with you. I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, I'm just here to discuss stuff.

I think in the beginning, you and I and Mike and others overreacted about the nonmetal here, and now everyone else thinks its necessary to downplay metal as far as possible. C'mon guys, I understand diversity, and i listen to a diverse range of music, but wheres the loyalty?















[half tongue in cheek]

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 09:03 PM
I think in the beginning, you and I and Mike and others overreacted about the nonmetal here, and now everyone else thinks its necessary to downplay metal as far as possible.

I think this is a good point. The discussion at hand could be an interesting one, so long as it doesn't descend into the idiotic shit-slinging and personal attacks that ended up overshadowing the entire 2007 year-end thread. Just 'cause the "pure" (for lack of a better word?) metalheads may have "started it," (which, while it's over a year ago, I'm pretty sure that's how it happened - however inconsequential it is) doesn't make the "diverse" team any better for getting defensive and argumentative about it all the time.

I'm sure that if (most of us at least) we were to all talk in person and whatever, we'd be very agreeable despite our different opinions, so why's everyone gotta be a sensitive dick over the interwebz? ;) Hopefully this thread stays calm, because as long as it does the discussion really does stay interesting IMO.

unrelatedly i've been programming all night and out of habit i ctrl-s'd every single time i finished typing a sentence in this post. :eyes: :dorky: :hecho:

ChildrenofSodom
03-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Exactly. None of our opinions matter. The only opinion that matters it this guys: ^

SomewhereInTime72
03-12-2009, 09:20 PM
wut

powerslave_85
03-12-2009, 09:24 PM
I think you guys are vastly exaggerating how often people put down metalheads as close-minded and ignorant just out of the blue.

DethMaiden
03-13-2009, 03:59 AM
God, I fucking hate metal.

Maiden33
03-13-2009, 09:16 AM
God, I fucking hate metal.

As far as I know, it hates you back.

Fe Maiden
03-13-2009, 09:20 AM
If we would quit trying to put our own tastes above the tastes of others, it would go alot smoother.Exactly!

Derelict
03-13-2009, 09:31 AM
i like lamp

mankvill
03-13-2009, 09:34 AM
i like lamp

do you really love lamp or are you just saying that to fit in

DethMaiden
03-13-2009, 09:36 AM
LOUD NOISES.

Maiden33
03-13-2009, 09:42 AM
WTF IS GOING ON?!?

Derelict
03-13-2009, 10:01 AM
do you really love lamp or are you just saying that to fit in

ok, caught, just trying to look cool in front of the cool kids :(

ChildrenofSodom
03-13-2009, 11:04 AM
I killed a guy.

DethMaiden
03-13-2009, 11:13 AM
I killed a guy.

About that. I think you should lay low for a while, maybe stay with some friends, because I think you're probably wanted for murder.

powerslave_85
03-13-2009, 11:13 AM
I killed a guy with a trident.FTFY.

PS- Where did you get a grenade??

ChildrenofSodom
03-13-2009, 11:17 AM
FTFY.

PS- Where did you get a grenade??

I dont know.

mankvill
03-13-2009, 12:21 PM
I dont know.

Things got pretty hectic back there. ChildrenofSodom killed a man with a trident.

SomewhereInTime72
03-13-2009, 02:47 PM
Looks like we've got ourselves a bilingual bloodfest.

SirLardsAlot
03-13-2009, 03:17 PM
I love this board.

I retract this statement.

hot_turkey_ed
03-13-2009, 03:49 PM
< peeks in thread >

:allan:

hot_turkey_ed
03-13-2009, 03:51 PM
In absence of a pic:

Now Playing On iTunes Metal-Mega-Shuffle...

Warriors Of The World United
Warriors Of The World
Manowar

Indestructible
03-13-2009, 06:55 PM
good bands

Hatebreed
Killswitch Engage
Lamb Of God
Shadows Fall
Slipknot
Trivium

Sinfulsot
03-13-2009, 07:41 PM
this thread started as a discussion about an acronym and then got good when it was about discussing subgenres...

TonyD
03-15-2009, 04:11 PM
good bands

Hatebreed
Killswitch Engage
Lamb Of God
Shadows Fall
Slipknot
Trivium

lul

JRA
03-15-2009, 04:21 PM
I've already discussed how I think Trivium get more shit than they deserve, and I have no interest in repeating myself.

ravenheart
03-15-2009, 05:30 PM
I've already discussed how I think Trivium get more shit than they deserve, and I have no interest in repeating myself.

I would have agreed up until approximately October 30, 2008, when Matt Heafy behaved like such a twat on stage supporting Slayer in London. At that point, despite the quality of most of their latest album, they deserved all the stick they got.

And their previous albums still blow.