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View Full Version : Nergal's Reaction To Potential BEHEMOTH Ban In Poland


hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 01:15 PM
Source: Blabbermouth (http://www.roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=74850)

So it looks like a group in Poland is compiling a list of bands "who promote Satanism or encourage murder and animal sacrifice." Same tune, different country.

What interests me is not the list but Nergal's reaction: "I am surprised that we are being judged by our appearance and that no one even took the time to contact us and ask us what our music is all about."

I'm surprised that he gave such a bullshit answer. Oh no! Behemoth is being judged! <gasp> Nobody contacted them? <awwww!> :boohoo:

Hey Nergal, maybe they read your lyrics from the last TEN YEARS? :fingers:

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 01:23 PM
http://www.afasfo.org/images/Censorship.jpg

DethMaiden
06-16-2007, 01:25 PM
http://www.afasfo.org/images/Censorship.jpg

Amen. What kind of fascist ideology says that this is a good idea. Hell, I think this country has too strict of censorship laws.

SomewhereInTime72
06-16-2007, 01:29 PM
^*Agreeing*

ChildrenofSodom
06-16-2007, 01:55 PM
Amen. What kind of fascist ideology .

catholicism

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 02:47 PM
Amen. What kind of fascist ideology says that this is a good idea. Hell, I think this country has too strict of censorship laws.

How do you know the private group -- it's not government compiling this list -- is fascist? How do you know they aren't approaching the ban from the LEFT? China regularly censors in favor of "harmony" at the expense of individual rights.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 02:52 PM
Doesn't anyone else find Nergal's "who me?" response disingenuous at best... at worst, NOT THE LEAST METAL?

sylpriest
06-16-2007, 03:07 PM
catholicism


F U
:tp:

ChildrenofSodom
06-16-2007, 03:16 PM
Doesn't anyone else find Nergal's "who me?" response disingenuous at best... at worst, NOT THE LEAST METAL?

Its so hilarious. It makes we wonder whether he was serious or not.....Arent they (or at least other death/black metal bands) banned in Singapore and other parts of that region?

F U
:tp:

Well..The late pope was from Poland, and According to the 2006 International Religious Freedom Report by the U.S. Department of State, more than 96 percent of citizens were identified as Roman Catholic[1] As of 2007 (CBOS' probe), 55% citizens over the age of 18 declare full identification with the Roman Church; 6% declare themselves as unbelievers. (After the death of Pope John Paul II in 2005: 63% and 3%

I am thinking this "All-Polish Committee For Defense Against Sects" is probably related to the church in one way or another.

Div
06-16-2007, 03:31 PM
Cameron makes a point, this is why seperation of church and state is important to pro-freedom countries.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 05:49 PM
I am thinking this "All-Polish Committee For Defense Against Sects" is probably related to the church in one way or another.

I'm sure there are Catholics involved... I wouldn't doubt it if the movitation for a list involved defending the values of the Church or their community... but all of that is removed from equating Catholicism to fascism. That's a bit different.

Personally, I've seen Behemoth perform a couple of times now. I've looked at their lyrics, laced full of the occult and satanism. In the larger scheme of things, there are more threatening bands to worry about than these guys. Behemoth lives next door to Dimmu-Borgir-Land. :clown:

SomewhereInTime72
06-16-2007, 05:54 PM
Behemoth's lyrics are more philosophical anyway, they don't exactly encourage violence.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Behemoth's lyrics are more philosophical anyway, they don't exactly encourage violence.

Both satanic misanthrophy and an associated sense of violence drive a lot of their lyrics. You're being very generous in your appraisal.

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 06:22 PM
I've looked at their lyrics, laced full of the occult and satanism. oH NOeS!!!111!! Protect teh childrens!!@

:tp:

People who advocate the banning of bands really need to get a fucking grip, especially when the band in question is as tame as this.

MetalDrummer888
06-16-2007, 06:23 PM
catholicism

christianity? :eyes:

SomewhereInTime72
06-16-2007, 06:23 PM
Both satanic misanthrophy and an associated sense of violence drive a lot of their lyrics. You're being very generous in your appraisal.

Well I'll admit theres a LOT of misanthropy, but no sense of ...real violence. Theres a bit of "BLAH BLAH WHEN SATAN POSSESSES ME HE WILL WIPE OUT THE HUMAN RACE" type stuff, but its not, y'know, credible violence. :tongue:

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 06:26 PM
oH NOeS!!!111!! Protect teh childrens!!@

:tp:

People who advocate the banning of bands really need to get a fucking grip, especially when the band in question is as tame as this.

You listen to Pig Destroyer. You've probably forgotten exactly what tame is. ;)

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 06:28 PM
You listen to Pig Destroyer. You've probably forgotten exactly what tame is. ;)
I read some Behemoth lyrics, and nothing jumped out at me as particularly shocking, especially compared to many of their death metal peers. This is just more Christian hysteria directed at strawmen and imaginary enemies.

MetalDrummer888
06-16-2007, 09:44 PM
I read some Behemoth lyrics, and nothing jumped out at me as particularly shocking, especially compared to many of their death metal peers. This is just more Christian hysteria directed at strawmen and imaginary enemies.

i remember reading all the lyrics for Demigod and i didnt see anything that bad.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 10:30 PM
I read some Behemoth lyrics, and nothing jumped out at me as particularly shocking, especially compared to many of their death metal peers. This is just more Christian hysteria directed at strawmen and imaginary enemies.

i remember reading all the lyrics for Demigod and i didnt see anything that bad.

Both of you have lost your perspective on how extreme our music actually is. Do you realize that many adults consider just the name Judas Priest an extreme expression?

You mention death metal peers. Have you forgotten how far death metal is from the top 40 billboard chart, much less Behemoth's blackened interpretation of the genre?

Blackened.... Read Behemoth's song titles. Read their lyrics. It's all there. In fact, remove the "blackened" from Behemoth and there's not much of a band left. In the context of the original report, 'blackened' music is very much the target.

The question on the tables isn't Behemoth.... it's really whether the occult and satanism are helpful and healthy, for our youth or anyone else. One doesn't have to be Christian or particular religious to appreciate the hate and negativity inherent in blackened genres can be extremely harmful to an individual's mental health, certain spiritually corrosive, especially to those lacking an otherwise stable anchor in life.

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 10:33 PM
One doesn't have to be Christian or particular religious to appreciate the hate and negativity inherent in blackened genres can be extremely harmful to an individual's mental health, certain spiritually corrosive, especially to those lacking an otherwise stable anchor in life.
I really, REALLY disagree with this.

PS- Any argument you can think of for Satanism being "unhealthy," I can say the same thing about Christianity or any other "mainstream" religion.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 10:34 PM
i remember reading all the lyrics for Demigod and i didnt see anything that bad.

I'm not trying to be insulting. Do you really understand what you're reading in those lyrics?

Behemoth has a body of work outside Demigod. Check it out. (http://www.darklyrics.com/b/behemoth.html)

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 10:50 PM
I really, REALLY disagree with this.

PS- Any argument you can think of for Satanism being "unhealthy," I can say the same thing about Christianity or any other "mainstream" religion.

I've met enough wayward kids at metal concerts that have little else in their life besides metal to suggest otherwise. When life ceases to have meaning, really bad things tend to happen.

Satanism legitimizes hate as a basic value. Christianity does not, nor do most mainstream religions. Love your neighbor as yourself. What is hateful to you, don't do to your neighbor. Different expressions of the same values. Spare me diatribes on the abuse of religion. God is but one of many excuses humanity uses for its inhumanity.

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 10:51 PM
Satanism legitimizes hate as a basic value.I think you need to look a little deeper into what Satanism is really about.

JRA
06-16-2007, 10:56 PM
I think you need to look a little deeper into what Satanism is really about.

Not all bands sing about what Satanism is really about.


Case in point: Slayer.

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 11:02 PM
Not all bands sing about what Satanism is really about.


Case in point: Slayer.
Yeah, but that's not my point.

ADD
06-16-2007, 11:02 PM
I think you need to look a little deeper into what Satanism is really about.
What Ed is trying to stress is maybe the fact that these kids don't have any clue about what "actual" Satanism is about, as many people who really believe in it from a spiritual sense are what we'd consider pretty normal people I guess (take King Diamond for instance). Faith is not unhealthy if you really feel a connection to it, which is the purpose. Lots of people just are drawn to the dark or occult imagery and things because as Ed said they don't have anything goin for them in their lives and its against mainstream society in a lot of ways. Even the most popular metalcore bands we all point to and they're supposedly "trendy" fans really aren't a part of mainstream culture to a huge extent; they still see themselves on the outside. Real Satanism, like real Christianity, or real Islam, or whatever faith practice, takes some self-affirmation and is much more than just a crutch or an image to hide under.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 11:04 PM
I think you need to look a little deeper into what Satanism is really about.

Can we agree that satansim involves a certain degree of misanthropy?

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 11:04 PM
What Ed is trying to stress is maybe the fact that these kids don't have any clue about what "actual" Satanism is about, as many people who really believe in it from a spiritual sense are what we'd consider pretty normal people I guess (take King Diamond for instance). Faith is not unhealthy if you really feel a connection to it, which is the purpose. Lots of people just are drawn to the dark or occult imagery and things because as Ed said they don't have anything goin for them in their lives and its against mainstream society in a lot of ways. Even the most popular metalcore bands we all point to and they're supposedly "trendy" fans really aren't a part of mainstream culture to a huge extent; they still see themselves on the outside. Real Satanism, like real Christianity, or real Islam, or whatever faith practice, takes some self-affirmation and is much more than just a crutch or an image to hide under.
I agree to a point, but Ed flat out said that Satanism as a religion legitamizes hate, and that's what I took issue with.

ADD
06-16-2007, 11:06 PM
Satanism legitimizes hate as a basic value.

I'm pretty sure Satanism values the self above all else, there is no worship of any horned deity with a pitchfork in a fiery abyss or anything, and nor is there the bearded dude in the sky. Actually this is a good quote that I think is fitting here, its on the back of my Behemoth t-shirt: "I have not met a man who is not God himself already." I think that's the basic core principle.

powerslave_85
06-16-2007, 11:07 PM
Can we agree that satansim involves a certain degree of misanthropy?I think it has a lot more to do with denying and rejecting tenets of Christianity that are flawed and/or hypocritical.

I'm pretty sure Satanism values the self above all else
Exactly. And to a certain degree, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's mostly about enjoying the life that you lead without having some invisible man in the sky tell you what you can and can't do.

ADD
06-16-2007, 11:08 PM
I always saw it as an embracing of the individual in rebellion to other religion's preoccupations with an abstract idea of God.

ADD
06-16-2007, 11:11 PM
Exactly. And to a certain degree, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's mostly about enjoying the life that you lead without having some invisible man in the sky tell you what you can and can't do.

Yup. Where it can go awry is then people don't take into consideration others at all, so life can be very self-centered. But I mean a lot of the more intellectual Satanists out there seem to get this principle pretty well. It could also be argued that we all act out of our own selfishness all the time, even when helping others, because subconsciously we gain satisfaction from doing so.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 11:12 PM
What Ed is trying to stress is maybe the fact that these kids don't have any clue about what "actual" Satanism is about, as many people who really believe in it from a spiritual sense are what we'd consider pretty normal people I guess (take King Diamond for instance). Faith is not unhealthy if you really feel a connection to it, which is the purpose. Lots of people just are drawn to the dark or occult imagery and things because as Ed said they don't have anything goin for them in their lives and its against mainstream society in a lot of ways. Even the most popular metalcore bands we all point to and they're supposedly "trendy" fans really aren't a part of mainstream culture to a huge extent; they still see themselves on the outside. Real Satanism, like real Christianity, or real Islam, or whatever faith practice, takes some self-affirmation and is much more than just a crutch or an image to hide under.

That's part of it. I don't think many of these kids have much a clue nor do I think they're quite prepared for what they're getting into. They're fucked up and need help. That's not a religious issue, just compassion for other people hurting... people that some satanic thought would deem worthless.

ADD
06-16-2007, 11:12 PM
That's part of it. I don't think many of these kids have much a clue nor do I think they're quite prepared for what they're getting into. They're fucked up and need help. That's not a religious issue, just compassion for other people hurting... people that some satanic thought would deem worthless.
Exactly.

MetalDrummer888
06-16-2007, 11:24 PM
Both of you have lost your perspective on how extreme our music actually is. Do you realize that many adults consider just the name Judas Priest an extreme expression?

You mention death metal peers. Have you forgotten how far death metal is from the top 40 billboard chart, much less Behemoth's blackened interpretation of the genre?

Blackened.... Read Behemoth's song titles. Read their lyrics. It's all there. In fact, remove the "blackened" from Behemoth and there's not much of a band left. In the context of the original report, 'blackened' music is very much the target.

The question on the tables isn't Behemoth.... it's really whether the occult and satanism are helpful and healthy, for our youth or anyone else. One doesn't have to be Christian or particular religious to appreciate the hate and negativity inherent in blackened genres can be extremely harmful to an individual's mental health, certain spiritually corrosive, especially to those lacking an otherwise stable anchor in life.


agreed.

but really, i dont remember there being a single gore/violence reference in demigod. Most of it was this wannabe-theological nonsense. Maybe their earlier stuff was worse, i dunno.

haha nevermind . . . i just went back and read them. There is definitely some violent overtones, but certainly no worse than judas priest or metallica or any of the big etal bands. They certainly arent anywhere near as bad as your average death metal band.

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 11:31 PM
I think it has a lot more to do with denying and rejecting tenets of Christianity that are flawed and/or hypocritical.

Exactly. And to a certain degree, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's mostly about enjoying the life that you lead without having some invisible man in the sky tell you what you can and can't do.

You don't need Satan(ism) to reject Christianity or God. Satanism brings A LOT of baggage to the table and goes much further that the point of self, especially as self relates to the rest of humanity. That's where the hate and misanthophy shine the darkest. Are you really going to deny these latter two values?

hot_turkey_ed
06-16-2007, 11:38 PM
agreed.

but really, i dont remember there being a single gore/violence reference in demigod. Most of it was this wannabe-theological nonsense. Maybe their earlier stuff was worse, i dunno.

haha nevermind . . . i just went back and read them. There is definitely some violent overtones, but certainly no worse than judas priest or metallica or any of the big etal bands. They certainly arent anywhere near as bad as your average death metal band.

Neither Judas Priest nor Metallica have musical grounding in the occult. That makes them very different from Behemoth.

DethMaiden
06-17-2007, 08:21 AM
Someone who is misguided enough can get fucked up by any religion, not just Satanism. Hell, some of the hardcore Jesus freak Christians I know are way scarier than satanists.

overkiller
06-17-2007, 09:18 AM
The question on the tables isn't Behemoth.... it's really whether the occult and satanism are helpful and healthy, for our youth or anyone else. One doesn't have to be Christian or particular religious to appreciate the hate and negativity inherent in blackened genres can be extremely harmful to an individual's mental health, certain spiritually corrosive, especially to those lacking an otherwise stable anchor in life.

I'd like to see some cold, hard evidence for this.


Cause I think you're full of shit.

Angelripper
06-17-2007, 09:24 AM
Satan.

Rearranged gives...

Santa.

overkiller
06-17-2007, 09:33 AM
Satan.

Rearranged gives...

Santa.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I JUST GOT GOOSEBUMPS

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 01:49 PM
I'd like to see some cold, hard evidence for this.


Cause I think you're full of shit.

I already know you think I'm full of shit. I could assert that the sky is blue and you'd be a dick about it, just for the sake of being a dick.

To your point, talk to Bouville. Ask him about the kid we met at Iced Earth (http://www.metalsetlists.com/showthread.php?t=4921). He can verify what I have related in this thread. You might also ask him about his own experiences, if he is willing to share them with you.

Do you really lack the common sense to be so oblivious to the influences of hate and violence, especially on the unstable? Or to the effect of music on an individual's mood? Maybe you're just being a dick again. Anyway, here are a couple references to reinforce the obvious:

Radcoy, R., & Boyle, J. (1997). Psychological Foundations of Musical Behavior (3rd ed.). Springfield: Charles C. Thomas

Ballard, M., & Coates, S. (1995). The immediate effects of homicidal, suicidal, and nonviolent heavy metal and rap songs on the moods of college students. Youth and Society, 27, 148-168.

overkiller
06-17-2007, 02:41 PM
I already know you think I'm full of shit. I could assert that the sky is blue and you'd be a dick about it, just for the sake of being a dick.

To your point, talk to Bouville. Ask him about the kid we met at Iced Earth (http://www.metalsetlists.com/showthread.php?t=4921). He can verify what I have related in this thread. You might also ask him about his own experiences, if he is willing to share them with you.

Do you really lack the common sense to be so oblivious to the influences of hate and violence, especially on the unstable? Or to the effect of music on an individual's mood? Maybe you're just being a dick again. Anyway, here are a couple references to reinforce the obvious:

Radcoy, R., & Boyle, J. (1997). Psychological Foundations of Musical Behavior (3rd ed.). Springfield: Charles C. Thomas

Ballard, M., & Coates, S. (1995). The immediate effects of homicidal, suicidal, and nonviolent heavy metal and rap songs on the moods of college students. Youth and Society, 27, 148-168.

Here's the deal. I see hate and violence and a pretty fucking unavoidable element of the human experience, and simply ignoring it and/or censoring whatever you believe to inflame it doesn't solve anything. If you want to pretend like death, violence, hatred, murder, racism, sexism, genocide, and all the other great stuff humans are capable of just isn't real, fine, be my guest, but I think you're really just opting for ignorance and thereby removing a big part of what it is to be human. Suffering is necessary, and it inspires art. I'd rather have that and embrace it as a part of existence than live in a fantasy world where people like you would have offensive material censored because it might adversely affect "the unstable".

And just so I have a little bit of backup on this (because I know you wouldn't take my views seriously), I've always liked this quote, and I feel it's a strong affirmation of the very amoral nature of metal lyrics:

"Let death and exile and everything that is terrible appear before your eyes every day, especially death; and you will never have anything contemptible in your thoughts or crave anything excessively." -- Epictetus, The Encheiridion 21

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 03:14 PM
Here's the deal. I see hate and violence and a pretty fucking unavoidable element of the human experience, and simply ignoring it and/or censoring whatever you believe to inflame it doesn't solve anything. If you want to pretend like death, violence, hatred, murder, racism, sexism, genocide, and all the other great stuff humans are capable of just isn't real, fine, be my guest, but I think you're really just opting for ignorance and thereby removing a big part of what it is to be human. Suffering is necessary, and it inspires art. I'd rather have that and embrace it as a part of existence than live in a fantasy world where people like you would have offensive material censored because it might adversely affect "the unstable".

And just so I have a little bit of backup on this (because I know you wouldn't take my views seriously), I've always liked this quote, and I feel it's a strong affirmation of the very amoral nature of metal lyrics:

"Let death and exile and everything that is terrible appear before your eyes every day, especially death; and you will never have anything contemptible in your thoughts or crave anything excessively." -- Epictetus, The Encheiridion 21)

You're correct that I do advocate a degree of censorship but it would be primarily toward youth rather than adults. I'm not advocating ignorance nor obsession. Existential suffering has a way of making itself known, regardless of our feelings on the matter. However, the primary focus on this thread goes further than death metal topics or dark expression in the arts.

The question on the tables isn't Behemoth.... it's really whether the occult and satanism are helpful and healthy, for our youth or anyone else. One doesn't have to be Christian or particular religious to appreciate the hate and negativity inherent in blackened genres can be extremely harmful to an individual's mental health, certain spiritually corrosive, especially to those lacking an otherwise stable anchor in life.

That's the point you called bullshit on... and your response doesn't really contest my assertion that the hate and negativity in blackened genres can have adverse consequences.

Div
06-17-2007, 03:25 PM
If you're going to discipline yourself into a religious school than satanism is a pretty retarted choice. Pretty much all the other ones offer some kind of continued existence or enlightenment, whereas in satanism (the le vay kind anyway) you just die and thats it. If that's the case you might aswell just do whatever you want in life and not be bound to any religious rules at all. Not only that, but the whole concept just sounds nerdy, "If someone annoys you, DESTROY them!" ...yea, ok Dr Doom :tp:

ADD
06-17-2007, 03:26 PM
"If someone annoys you, DESTROY them!"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

powerslave_85
06-17-2007, 03:33 PM
You're correct that I do advocate a degree of censorship but it would be primarily toward youth rather than adults.It's the job of parents to decide what their kids should or should not hear, PERIOD.

DethMaiden
06-17-2007, 03:54 PM
It's the job of parents to decide what their kids should or should not hear, PERIOD.

:fist:

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 04:47 PM
It's the job of parents to decide what their kids should or should not hear, PERIOD.

Maybe we should do away with age restrictions on the sale of alcoholic beverages. After all, it's the parent's responsbility to decide what their kids drink. Ditto with cigarettes. Right after those, we should do away from legal mandates requiring education. After all, it's the parent's responsibility on what kids learn or don't learn.

powerslave_85
06-17-2007, 04:55 PM
Maybe we should do away with age restrictions on the sale of alcoholic beverages. After all, it's the parent's responsbility to decide what their kids drink. Ditto with cigarettes. Right after those, we should do away from legal mandates requiring education. After all, it's the parent's responsibility on what kids learn or don't learn.Give me a fucking break. It's obvious that harmful things like cigarettes and alcohol should be kept from children, and that they should be educated. Don't give me that kind of bullshit "slippery slope" argument. But when it comes to things that are more of a gray area in terms of their effects on children, like "offensive" music, video games, movies, and TV shows, it's the parents' responsibility to decide whether their children are old enough to understand it, and, if necessary, explain to them the difference between artistic fantasy and reality.

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 05:11 PM
Give me a fucking break. It's obvious that harmful things like cigarettes and alcohol should be kept from children, and that they should be educated. Don't give me that kind of bullshit "slippery slope" argument. But when it comes to things that are more of a gray area in terms of their effects on children, like "offensive" music, video games, movies, and TV shows, it's the parents' responsibility to decide whether their children are old enough to understand it, and, if necessary, explain to them the difference between artistic fantasy and reality.

Thanks. We agree that society can place restrictions above that a parent can do alone. Parents can only do so much on their own but collectively can do a lot more together. I'd glad we're on the same page.

So now it's only a question of what's dangerous. What's so wrong then with placing restrictions on the grey areas -- we can debate on the specifics of the area -- such that the parents have to make the purchase and give them to their kids?

Div
06-17-2007, 05:32 PM
Don't these albums already have parental warning labels on them?

DethMaiden
06-17-2007, 06:23 PM
Thanks. We agree that society can place restrictions above that a parent can do alone. Parents can only do so much on their own but collectively can do a lot more together. I'd glad we're on the same page.

So now it's only a question of what's dangerous. What's so wrong then with placing restrictions on the grey areas -- we can debate on the specifics of the area -- such that the parents have to make the purchase and give them to their kids?

This does happen all the time, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. But they should not have to. It's eerily Orwellian to be unable to buy what you want in a record store because you aren't a certain type of person (in this case, a person of a certain age).

powerslave_85
06-17-2007, 06:28 PM
So now it's only a question of what's dangerous. What's so wrong then with placing restrictions on the grey areas -- we can debate on the specifics of the area -- such that the parents have to make the purchase and give them to their kids?
If we're going to do that, than we have a lot of work to do figuring out what's acceptable and what's not. This country's priorities are absolutely fucked up when it comes to what's considered offensive. The bombing of Baghdad to start the Iraq war was cheered on and treated like a fucking fireworks display, but half the country cried out in horror when they accidently showed Janet Jackson's tit for a hundredth of a second. You can't show female nudity or say "fuck," but if you show people getting tortured, you can have the highest rated show on television. So, it gets me twisted up when people decide for me what is acceptable for children. That's bullshit.

ADD
06-17-2007, 06:44 PM
If we're going to do that, than we have a lot of work to do figuring out what's acceptable and what's not. This country's priorities are absolutely fucked up when it comes to what's considered offensive. The bombing of Baghdad to start the Iraq war was cheered on and treated like a fucking fireworks display, but half the country cried out in horror when they accidently showed Janet Jackson's tit for a hundredth of a second. You can't show female nudity or say "fuck," but if you show people getting tortured, you can have the highest rated show on television. So, it gets me twisted up when people decide for me what is acceptable for children. That's bullshit.
Oh yeah, very nice :agree:

Div
06-17-2007, 07:24 PM
This does happen all the time, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. But they should not have to. It's eerily Orwellian to be unable to buy what you want in a record store because you aren't a certain type of person (in this case, a person of a certain age).



Dude we certainly need age restrictions on certain products. If I make a videogame for 18yr olds I sure as hell won't be making considerations for 12yr olds. Same thing with music, if someone makes a record intended for a mature audience than guess who shouldn't be able to purchase it? If a parent wants to buy it for their kid it's their call, but I don't agree with having kids go into stores and buy adult content.


That's why they need to have content warning labels on a product not intended (by the artist, not some overpaid PTA committee) for a young audience.

powerslave_85
06-17-2007, 07:29 PM
(by the artist, not some overpaid PTA committee)
YES. This is a key point.

DethMaiden
06-17-2007, 07:30 PM
Dude we certainly need age restrictions on certain products. If I make a videogame for 18yr olds I sure as hell won't be making considerations for 12yr olds. Same thing with music, if someone makes a record intended for a mature audience than guess who shouldn't be able to purchase it? If a parent wants to buy it for their kid it's their call, but I don't agree with having kids go into stores and buy adult content.


That's why they need to have content warning labels on a product not intended (by the artist, not some overpaid PTA committee) for a young audience.

You're probably right, but coming from you, encouragement of censorship is fucking hilarious :lol: :lol:

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 08:07 PM
This does happen all the time, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. But they should not have to. It's eerily Orwellian to be unable to buy what you want in a record store because you aren't a certain type of person (in this case, a person of a certain age).

Kids don't have the same rights as an adult. Is it also Orwellian that some of them have a bed time?

Div
06-17-2007, 08:07 PM
You're probably right, but coming from you, encouragement of censorship is fucking hilarious :lol: :lol:

yea I guess that is a bit ironic. censoring adult content from minors is pretty much the only censorship im ok with tho.




besides, its the copywrite laws that i break anyway. :pirate:

JRA
06-17-2007, 08:14 PM
but half the country cried out in horror when they accidently showed Janet Jackson's tit for a hundredth of a second.


They're just angry they weren't Justin Timberlake. :D

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 08:20 PM
If we're going to do that, than we have a lot of work to do figuring out what's acceptable and what's not. This country's priorities are absolutely fucked up when it comes to what's considered offensive. The bombing of Baghdad to start the Iraq war was cheered on and treated like a fucking fireworks display, but half the country cried out in horror when they accidently showed Janet Jackson's tit for a hundredth of a second. You can't show female nudity or say "fuck," but if you show people getting tortured, you can have the highest rated show on television. So, it gets me twisted up when people decide for me what is acceptable for children. That's bullshit.

It's my turn for a "Give me for a fucking break."

powerslave_85
06-17-2007, 08:23 PM
It's my turn for a "Give me for a fucking break."
You've never been confused as to why sex is evil, but violence is okay in our entertainment society?

hot_turkey_ed
06-17-2007, 08:42 PM
You've never been confused as to why sex is evil, but violence is okay in our entertainment society?

I watched one of the CSIs after Jericho earlier this year. The gore it displayed would have been appropriate for an R rated movie when I was growing up, not broadcast even at 1AM.

The problem is not standards but declining standards.

ADD
06-17-2007, 10:05 PM
The problem is not standards but declining standards.

I feel ya.

Div
06-17-2007, 10:21 PM
If people actually stopped giving crap shows good ratings it would force the networks to air good stuff, but instead of letting the market decide they (>>>>STUPIDLY<<<<) complain to some beaurocratic censorship board.

Same goes for this album, if the people in Poland didn't want it then they could show that through the sales charts, but intstead they get the government involved and ruin it for the few people who want it.

MetalDrummer888
06-18-2007, 12:03 AM
You've never been confused as to why sex is evil, but violence is okay in our entertainment society?

this is why my mom has no problem with me watching porn when i was younger but freaked when she found out i saw Die hard. :eyes:

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 03:44 AM
Someone who is misguided enough can get fucked up by any religion, not just Satanism. Hell, some of the hardcore Jesus freak Christians I know are way scarier than satanists.

I dont know. I'd take that Australian Venom Satanist with the Inverted Cross on his head over Sarah Taylor ANYDAY!.

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 03:53 AM
Kids don't have the same rights as an adult. Is it also Orwellian that some of them have a bed time?

Bed times are only enforced in the house. I think it feels more Orwellian because it is basically a slap in the face....In most instances, alcohol, tobacco, sexual devices, and other age-restricted things are set aside at the stores, to more easily monitor who buys them. CDs are just "laid out there" for everyone to see, everyone to touch, any kid can pick it up, listen to samples, etc......But then once you get up there...

"Sorry Timmy, the government doesnt think you want to hear this."
"But why?"
"Well, they talk about things other than God, Jesus, consumption, and conformity. BOO!"

I do think the issue of why bands like this are 'considered' dangerous is not because THEY are Satanists (actually, I think they are Pagans, which is completely different).....In most cases, the bands are smart enough to think for themselves and implant their own genuine beliefs into their music. But havent we all heard the stories of the angst-filled teenagers, the loners, that listen to black metal or death metal, get involved in the scene, but are too fucking blind, ignorant, and misled to distinguish between reality and fantasy, right and wrong, normal and extreme. The actual belief system may be harmless, but some dumb soul takes it overboard and ruins it for everyone. At any rate, those cases are rare, and a widespread ban on these bands would do more harm to the fans than would benefit Poland.

overkiller
06-18-2007, 04:26 AM
In most cases, the bands are smart enough to think for themselves and implant their own genuine beliefs into their music. But havent we all heard the stories of the angst-filled teenagers, the loners, that listen to black metal or death metal, get involved in the scene, but are too fucking blind, ignorant, and misled to distinguish between reality and fantasy, right and wrong, normal and extreme. The actual belief system may be harmless, but some dumb soul takes it overboard and ruins it for everyone. At any rate, those cases are rare, and a widespread ban on these bands would do more harm to the fans than would benefit Poland.

I'm.... so... confused.............. you........ said something.... I........... agree with.........? *systems overload*


This highlights why shit like Behemoth isn't the real problem. Viewed this way, systems like Christianity and Islam have been way fucking more harmful than a little Satanism ever could be (unless Satanist extremists got some kind of real momentum and power :eyes:).

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 04:30 AM
Viewed this way, systems like Christianity and Islam have been way fucking more harmful than a little Satanism ever could be (unless Satanist extremists got some kind of real momentum and power :eyes:).

Imagine a Satanist government! :eek:

Angelripper
06-18-2007, 05:22 AM
I am a cretin,
I am a cretin,
Hear me shout!
Hear me shout!

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 05:53 AM
I'm.... so... confused.............. you........ said something.... I........... agree with.........? *systems overload*



haha....

For my grandpa's police training, they had to read about Satanism, as it was a growing threat in the 70s and 80s. A number of the books that he still has (but no longer reads) focus on Satanism among youth, and the heavy metal industry. Let me tell you something folks: people are fucking retarded. The people that write these books may be trained law enforcement officals, but they have no idea what they are talking about. Read this passage from "The Satan Hunter":

Many of those who are involved in the production and distribution of punk and heavy metal music deny that the lyrics are meaningful. But that's not surprising. Would you expect the purveyors of this style of "entertainment" to confess that its intent was to lead youths into the snare of Satan?

You got to be kidding me...This guy thinks that there is a world conspiracy within the music industry to corrupt the youth of the West. POPPYCOCK! This guys cites early Slayer promo photos as a prime example of explicit material, yet he plays off Brian Slagel's explanation that it is all in good fun and kids listen to metal because it is an escapist medium. The author also focuses on the evils of King Diamond, and his advocacy of promoting free thought. On the subject of the band Thee Temple OV Psychick, he says To be a member, they must constantly ask the question, "Why?" to EVERYTHING He goes on later to discuss Ozzy Osbourne, Suicide Solution, and War Pigs.

This author was probably genuinely trying to educate his reader on the matter of heavy metal and Satanism. But he was obviously so far removed from the scene, that he overlooked the positives of the music (such as the companionship, the talent/determination/practice required to create the music, the business oppurtunities, the use of metal as an emotional release, etc) and focused solely on the negative outward appearance, easily misinterpreted lyrical content, and unorthodoxy. I have a feeling that with the expansion of mass media, Behemoth and other bands are becoming the new Ozzy's, and the same backwards people are genuinely trying to protect themselves and the youth by squashing free speech and cultural diversity.

Div
06-18-2007, 11:43 AM
Bed times are only enforced in the house. I think it feels more Orwellian because it is basically a slap in the face....In most instances, alcohol, tobacco, sexual devices, and other age-restricted things are set aside at the stores, to more easily monitor who buys them. CDs are just "laid out there" for everyone to see, everyone to touch, any kid can pick it up, listen to samples, etc......But then once you get up there...

"Sorry Timmy, the government doesnt think you want to hear this."
"But why?"
"Well, they talk about things other than God, Jesus, consumption, and conformity. BOO!"

I do think the issue of why bands like this are 'considered' dangerous is not because THEY are Satanists (actually, I think they are Pagans, which is completely different).....In most cases, the bands are smart enough to think for themselves and implant their own genuine beliefs into their music. But havent we all heard the stories of the angst-filled teenagers, the loners, that listen to black metal or death metal, get involved in the scene, but are too fucking blind, ignorant, and misled to distinguish between reality and fantasy, right and wrong, normal and extreme. The actual belief system may be harmless, but some dumb soul takes it overboard and ruins it for everyone. At any rate, those cases are rare, and a widespread ban on these bands would do more harm to the fans than would benefit Poland.


Theres alot of whiney emo music out there that talks about suicide and rap music that promotes unethical moral behavior too but noone targets them because that music places higher on the charts and brings in more money than metal.

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 11:56 AM
Theres alot of whiney emo music out there that talks about suicide and rap music that promotes unethical moral behavior too but noone targets them because that music places higher on the charts and brings in more money than metal.

yeah...but rapper hide their messages in layers of dance beats and ghetto talk.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 03:12 PM
I think it feels more Orwellian because it is basically a slap in the face....In most instances, alcohol, tobacco, sexual devices, and other age-restricted things are set aside at the stores, to more easily monitor who buys them. CDs are just "laid out there" for everyone to see, everyone to touch, any kid can pick it up, listen to samples, etc......But then once you get up there...

...easily monitor who buys them? No. There's no reporting mechanisms that specifically correlates these purchases to individual nor is there a specific recipient of such a report. One could argue that ATM or credit card purchases can be tracked but that is true of any product. Pay in cash if you don't want this done.

You should (re)read 1984. Orwellian doesn't apply here.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 03:18 PM
Bed times are only enforced in the house.

Fine. Do you know anything about contracts? Here's a summary (http://www.paralegaladvice.org.za/docs/chap11/02.html).

Check out the section on minors and contracts.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 03:30 PM
This author was probably genuinely trying to educate his reader on the matter of heavy metal and Satanism. But he was obviously so far removed from the scene, that he overlooked the positives of the music (such as the companionship, the talent/determination/practice required to create the music, the business oppurtunities, the use of metal as an emotional release, etc) and focused solely on the negative outward appearance, easily misinterpreted lyrical content, and unorthodoxy. I have a feeling that with the expansion of mass media, Behemoth and other bands are becoming the new Ozzy's, and the same backwards people are genuinely trying to protect themselves and the youth by squashing free speech and cultural diversity.

Do most of your positives excuse white-power music? Some of them could just be misunderstood too. I wouldn't want to squash free speech and cultural diversity now.

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 04:11 PM
Do most of your positives excuse white-power music? Some of them could just be misunderstood too. I wouldn't want to squash free speech and cultural diversity now.

No, I wouldn't want to squash it. I don't have to agree with their message, but they have just as much right as anyone else to speak it.

JRA
06-18-2007, 04:31 PM
Do most of your positives excuse white-power music? Some of them could just be misunderstood too. I wouldn't want to squash free speech and cultural diversity now.

Oh come on. The whole "hate is protected by free speech" is bullshit and everyone here knows it.

Free speech should be used by intellectuals who question whether or not authority is doing the right thing, not by idiots who are angry at black people because they're sick of how "Hip hop style" is everywhere they look (which is something rich white kids are responsible for anyway).

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 04:33 PM
Oh come on. The whole "hate is protected by free speech" is bullshit and everyone here knows it.

Free speech should be used by intellectuals who question whether or not authority is doing the right thing, not by idiots who are angry at black people because they're sick of how "Hip hop style" is everywhere they look (which is something rich white kids are responsible for anyway).

So you would restrict free speech to people who aren't, as you say, intellectuals?

Would you also like to make a master race comprised of them?

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 04:40 PM
No, I wouldn't want to squash it. I don't have to agree with their message, but they have just as much right as anyone else to speak it.

There are a lot of angles and points floating around this thread. My point about white-power music was directed towads CoS whitewashing of metal's warts in favor his suggested positives in a bid to see exactly how far these positives travel.

It's not a question of rights here, which I don't dispute. I'm not even asserting that the government squash the right of black metalers. I do advocate restricting its distribution toward minors in the same way manner we restrict items that as a society we have deemed to require some level of maturity.

Here are the key questions of this thread as I see them:

1. Does satanism pose a risk to our youth? What risk?
2. Should the sale of black metal be restricted in some fashion? If yes, how so?

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 04:47 PM
Oh come on. The whole "hate is protected by free speech" is bullshit and everyone here knows it.

Free speech should be used by intellectuals who question whether or not authority is doing the right thing, not by idiots who are angry at black people because they're sick of how "Hip hop style" is everywhere they look (which is something rich white kids are responsible for anyway).

I do consider hate protected; it's the price of free speech. However, when hate gets translated into criminal action, it's time to drop the hammer on somebody.

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 05:38 PM
1. Does satanism pose a risk to our youth? What risk?
2. Should the sale of black metal be restricted in some fashion? If yes, how so?

1. Yes, just as Fundamentalist Christianity, Islam, and Judaism pose a risk to our youth.

2. No.

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 05:47 PM
Two quotes that I think fit well in this thread:

"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky

"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
-Mark Twain

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 05:51 PM
Two quotes that I think fit well in this thread:

"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky

"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
-Mark Twain

Wow, those are both fucking perfect :fist:

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 05:55 PM
1. Does satanism pose a risk to our youth? What risk?
2. Should the sale of black metal be restricted in some fashion? If yes, how so?

1. If you looked at it with paranoia, ANYTHING under the sun is a threat to youth. I think dogs are dangerous, because they are capable of getting rabies..So lets kill all the dogs, right? The actual belief system of Satanism is not harmful, but misled people that represent Satanism MAY be dangerous, just as there are radical Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever.

2. No. Again, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, these people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to black metal. The lyrics mean nothing.

If I was raising a child, I would rather them be exposed to ideas and free thoughts that are taboo or counter the norm, than have them handed a bible and a flower and shoved into a bubble. The reality is, the kids that are interested in black metal are probably 13 years or older, a time when they are probably experimenting with alcohol, drugs, sex, etc (whatever crazy kids today do), don't you think we need to cut the umbilical cord on this one, and let our kids decide for themselves. My parents dont give a damn what I listen to (as long as profanity is kept to a minimum), and I respect them for that because I am allowed to think for myself.

I believe Voltaire would know exactly what to say on the matter of whether Satanic or White-Supremacy music should be allowed.

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 05:58 PM
My parents dont give a damn what I listen to (as long as profanity is kept to a minimum), and I respect them for that because I am allowed to think for myself.

I listened to the following song with my eight-year old brother in the car today:

WHOA
Give us all that you are
I HATE ME!
Give me all that you are!
WHOA YEAHHH!
HELL YEAH!!
WHOA Give us back the temptation
WE HATE YOU
This is not the temptation
WHOA YEAH!!
HELL YEAH!
Tell us how much they fucking suck!
HELL YEAH THEY FUCKING SUCK!
You and your band you fucking suck!
HELL YEAH YOU FUCKING SUCK!
I don't give a fuck you fucking fuck!
HELL YEAH YOU FUCKING SUCK!
Come on tell me how much we fucking suck
HELL YEAH YOU FUCKING SUCK!
Hell yeah we fucking suck!
Hell yeah we fucking suck!
Oh fuck us all!

Oh yeah!
HELL YEAH!
WHOA YEAHHHH!!!!
HELL MOTHERFUCKING YEAH!!!
WHOA
Give us back the temptation
WE HATE YOU!!!
This is not the temptation
Sing it now!
OHHH YEAH!
HELL YEAHHHH!!!
Tell us how much they fucking suck!
HELL YEAH THEY FUCKING SUCK!
Even your girlfriend fucking sucks!
HELL YEAH SHE FUCKING SUCKS!
Oh fuck you you fucking fuck!
HELL YEAH YOU FUCKING SUCK!
Tell me how much you fucking suck!
HELL YEAH WE FUCKING SUCK!
Hell yeah you fucking suck!
Hell yeah you fucking suck!
We are the losers of all that we know!
Fuck us all!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 06:01 PM
I listened to the following song with my eight-year old brother in the car today:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

haha....okay....:eyes:

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 06:38 PM
1. Yes, just as Fundamentalist Christianity, Islam, and Judaism pose a risk to our youth.

2. No.

So you oppose groups such as Catholic Charities or Chabad?

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 06:41 PM
So you oppose groups such as Catholic Charities or Chabad?

No, I was saying that everything in an extreme form poses a threat to impressionable youth, not that we should start banning everything allegedly mind-tainting.

Div
06-18-2007, 06:43 PM
The actual belief system of Satanism is not harmful.


Oh come on now... are you really going that far as to defend satanism just to support black metal? You've got Jesus Christ listed as your personal hero on your myspace page for fucks sake. Maybe you should read some of the satanic laws and see that they promote death, violence, hatred and all that good stuff the black metal lyrics talk about.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 06:45 PM
1. If you looked at it with paranoia, ANYTHING under the sun is a threat to youth. I think dogs are dangerous, because they are capable of getting rabies..So lets kill all the dogs, right? The actual belief system of Satanism is not harmful, but misled people that represent Satanism MAY be dangerous, just as there are radical Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever.

2. No. Again, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, these people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to black metal. The lyrics mean nothing.

If I was raising a child, I would rather them be exposed to ideas and free thoughts that are taboo or counter the norm, than have them handed a bible and a flower and shoved into a bubble. The reality is, the kids that are interested in black metal are probably 13 years or older, a time when they are probably experimenting with alcohol, drugs, sex, etc (whatever crazy kids today do), don't you think we need to cut the umbilical cord on this one, and let our kids decide for themselves. My parents dont give a damn what I listen to (as long as profanity is kept to a minimum), and I respect them for that because I am allowed to think for myself.

I believe Voltaire would know exactly what to say on the matter of whether Satanic or White-Supremacy music should be allowed.

Voltaire would probably just blame the Jews before making any comment.

Satanism legitimizes both hate and misanthrophy, two values very contrary to Judeo-Christian value systems. Non-sequitur pot shots don't change this. I think you -- a lot of you -- are minimizing or ignoring some really important points.

Your parents should give a damn. They are not doing their job if they don't.

Kids that are into sex, drugs, and alcohol should have the cord tightened, not cut. Ever see the movie Kids? You have to love the total absence of parents. Kids don't raise themselves; parents do.

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 06:47 PM
I did not want to break this out, but I'm left with no choice:

http://carryabigsticker.com/images/coexist_500.gif


I don't care about parents and their kids, that's beside the point. Free expression, unrestricted by censorship laws, regardless of belief, is the only way one can be truly free.

ADD
06-18-2007, 06:52 PM
I did not want to break this out, but I'm left with no choice:

http://carryabigsticker.com/images/coexist_500.gif


I don't care about parents and their kids, that's beside the point. Free expression, unrestricted by censorship laws, regardless of belief, is the only way one can be truly free.

I don't see a pentagram though ;)

DethMaiden
06-18-2007, 06:53 PM
I don't see a pentagram though ;)

:lol: Pretend the "e" has an inverted cross on the underside.

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 06:54 PM
Your parents should give a damn. They are not doing their job if they don't.
I think that he meant that figuratively, in that they know what he listens to, but trust that he has the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, fantasy and reality, etc.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 06:58 PM
Oh come on now... are you really going that far as to defend satanism just to support black metal? You've got Jesus Christ listed as your personal hero on your myspace page for fucks sake. Maybe you should read some of the satanic laws and see that they promote death, violence, hatred and all that good stuff the black metal lyrics talk about.

:party:

It isn't me against the entire board!

:lol:

Div
06-18-2007, 07:14 PM
:cowboy:

JRA
06-18-2007, 07:45 PM
So you would restrict free speech to people who aren't, as you say, intellectuals?

Would you also like to make a master race comprised of them?

That sounds a hell of a lot better than a master race composed of people who's twin diety's are Adolf Hitler and Jesus Christ. :nutkick:

If a person has a well thought out, intelligent argument to make about, say...why Jesse Jackson is ruining racial relations in America, then sure let him say it. But if another person just stood on a street corner randomly yelling racial slurs at his own whim... or not even that, just someone on the street yelling "The Apocalypse is coming!" like a lunatic...then yes, lock his mouth up and throw away the key.



"If we don't believe in free expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky


Does that include all those people on Fox News that cried out in horror about Rage Against The Machine's performance whom you were bitching about on your blog?

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 07:48 PM
Does that include all those people on Fox News that cried out in horror about Rage Against The Machine's performance whom you were bitching about on your blog?Uh, yeah, of course. I must have missed the part when I said that those people should have been stopped from saying what they did. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism. They're free to say what they want, and I'm just as free to call them out on it.

Div
06-18-2007, 08:03 PM
If a person has a well thought out, intelligent argument to make about, say...why Jesse Jackson is ruining racial relations in America, then sure let him say it. But if another person just stood on a street corner randomly yelling racial slurs at his own whim... or not even that, just someone on the street yelling "The Apocalypse is coming!" like a lunatic...then yes, lock his mouth up and throw away the key.




they have the right to say those things, as society has the right to label them as insane and shun them. getting people involved to police words is not a good idea, because sooner or later it will come back against you.

sylpriest
06-18-2007, 08:04 PM
Freedom?
yeah right
Freedom?
yeah right
FREEDOM!!!
YEAH RIGHT!!!!

:)

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 08:04 PM
Oh come on now... are you really going that far as to defend satanism just to support black metal? You've got Jesus Christ listed as your personal hero on your myspace page for fucks sake. Maybe you should read some of the satanic laws and see that they promote death, violence, hatred and all that good stuff the black metal lyrics talk about.

I dont listen to black metal. BUT, I do not think free expression should be suppressed because of moral disagreement. I am not a Jesus Freak, dont play me off as one. I have read literature on Satanism, from the Church of Satan, and they specifically say not to harm anyone, or perform ceremonies with/on someone against their will. Maybe YOU should read some material on true Satanism, not Hollywood Devil Worship. Realize that it doesnt matter if you worship Set, Odin, Jesus, Shiva, Beelzebub, or whatever....you have the right to worship whoever you want, however you want, whenever you want, and you are free to tell other people about that.....It is a different matter of whether they listen to you or not....but as long as you are not causing any direct harm to them, you are not doing anything wrong.

It seems to me that these parent groups that try to shut Satanists up are so insecure with themselves, their own beliefs, and the mental capacity and moral judgment of their own children that they find it easier to silence the offenders, rather than a) ignoring them, or b) instructing their fucking kids that while diversity should be welcomed, violence and immorality in any form in unacceptable. IF THE PARENTS WERE DOING THEIR JOB, THEY WOULDNT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR KIDS GOING OFF AND EXPERIMENTING WITH SEX, DRUGS, AND SATAN. If the parents can balance the indoctrination of a strong moral center and a sense of right and wrong, with a sense of personal privacy and independence, then I think the child will respect them more, and be less likely to follow the wrong path.

Uh, yeah, of course. I must have missed the part when I said that those people should have been stopped from saying what they did. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism. They're free to say what they want, and I'm just as free to call them out on it.

QFT

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 08:13 PM
So you oppose groups such as Catholic Charities or Chabad?

No, but I think the majority of us oppose bombing abortion clinics and molesting altar boys (Christianity) and stoning pregnantout-of-wedlock women (Islam.)

Voltaire would probably just blame the Jews before making any comment.


I was going for: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (though he most likely never said that :eyes: ) But yes, I do understand the irony of his two loves: freedom of speech and anti-semitism.

Div
06-18-2007, 08:21 PM
I have read literature on Satanism, from the Church of Satan, and they specifically say not to harm anyone,
QFT


If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!





hmmmm

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 08:43 PM
hmmmm

The Church of Satan is very vocal in announcing its desire to see all criminals brought to swift and appropriate justice. The Church of Satan does not hesitate to expel members for engaging in illegal activity, or to cooperate with law enforcement to bring them to justice. THOSE HEARTLESS SODOMITES!

it also seems you missed a few...



3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.



I dont know why this has become a "Satanism is bad because...." argument. Mike, you of all people should be most infuriated that freedom of speech and press is being endangered. I dont support Satanism, but is it right for society to automatically label them as murderers and corrupt? It also saddens me that you, Mike, focused only on a small part of my argument (that all belief systems, at their core are harmless, only the believers are dangerous), and you ignored my "Parents need to tame their kids instead of meddling in other peoples busness" statement.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 08:51 PM
I dont listen to black metal. BUT, I do not think free expression should be suppressed because of moral disagreement. I am not a Jesus Freak, dont play me off as one. I have read literature on Satanism, from the Church of Satan, and they specifically say not to harm anyone, or perform ceremonies with/on someone against their will. Maybe YOU should read some material on true Satanism, not Hollywood Devil Worship. Realize that it doesnt matter if you worship Set, Odin, Jesus, Shiva, Beelzebub, or whatever....you have the right to worship whoever you want, however you want, whenever you want, and you are free to tell other people about that.....It is a different matter of whether they listen to you or not....but as long as you are not causing any direct harm to them, you are not doing anything wrong.

It seems to me that these parent groups that try to shut Satanists up are so insecure with themselves, their own beliefs, and the mental capacity and moral judgment of their own children that they find it easier to silence the offenders, rather than a) ignoring them, or b) instructing their fucking kids that while diversity should be welcomed, violence and immorality in any form in unacceptable. IF THE PARENTS WERE DOING THEIR JOB, THEY WOULDNT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR KIDS GOING OFF AND EXPERIMENTING WITH SEX, DRUGS, AND SATAN. If the parents can balance the indoctrination of a strong moral center and a sense of right and wrong, with a sense of personal privacy and independence, then I think the child will respect them more, and be less likely to follow the wrong path.

True satanism? The Church Of Satan? Some form of theistic satanism? Some brand of gnosticism? Do tell.

Freedom of religion is a good thing, and I'd agree with you that to an extent, the object of worship doesn't matter. I'm more interested the values said worship represents. That's where the major religions tend to agree on macro-values that cross cultural lines. Satanism stands in opposition to those values. Parent groups try to shut down satanic groups because they understand these groups' values to be antithetical to those on which they are trying to raise their children.

You don't believe free expression should be suppressed out of moral disagreement? Ever heard of NAMBLA? The bullets on their web site sound very libetarian but are really about legalizing forms of pediphilia.

Div
06-18-2007, 08:53 PM
THOSE HEARTLESS SODOMITES!

it also seems you missed a few...



I dont know why this has become a "Satanism is bad because...." argument. Mike, you of all people should be most infuriated that freedom of speech and press is being endangered. I dont support Satanism, but is it right for society to automatically label them as murderers and corrupt?



I'm not gonna say they have no rights to worship satan or whatever, they can if they want as granted by our constitution, but im not going to sit here and read claims that satanism is great and it isn't immoral or harmful to children. if everyone here was a satanist we would have killed each other by now because satanic law deems we destroy those who annoy us. the church of satan actually opposes our first ammendment anyway, lobbying in support that the governemnt can tax churches.

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 08:58 PM
You don't believe free expression should be suppressed out of moral disagreement? Ever heard of NAMBLA? The bullets on their web site sound very libetarian but are really about legalizing forms of pediphilia.As long as it stays just talk, then fine. Let the sick fucks have their twisted little fantasies. But, just like anything else, if it leads to actions that are illegal, all bets are off. In that way, it's not really any different from anything else we're discussing.

JRA
06-18-2007, 08:59 PM
if everyone here was a satanist we would have killed each other by now because satanic law deems we destroy those who annoy us.

No, Pavo would have just banned us all.:D

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Yah know what...Screw this. I dont support Satanism, I do support religious freedom and the freedom of expression and the freedom to information. Thats it..I am done.

As long as it stays just talk, then fine. Let the sick fucks have their twisted little fantasies. But, just like anything else, if it leads to actions that are illegal, all bets are off. In that way, it's not really any different from anything else we're discussing.

Jesus, thank you for saying that.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:04 PM
TI dont know why this has become a "Satanism is bad because...." argument. Mike, you of all people should be most infuriated that freedom of speech and press is being endangered. I dont support Satanism, but is it right for society to automatically label them as murderers and corrupt? It also saddens me that you, Mike, focused only on a small part of my argument (that all belief systems, at their core are harmless, only the believers are dangerous), and you ignored my "Parents need to tame their kids instead of meddling in other peoples busness" statement.

I'll take credit for steering the debate to that point. It relates directly why I would restrict the sales of black metal from minors.

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 09:04 PM
Let's back up for a moment. It doesn't matter what Satanism preaches, because that doesn't necessarily dictate what actions its followers will take. Christianity has much more positive messages as its main philosophy, but which religion has had more violence committed in its name? You can't punish people for what they might do, only what they've done.

JRA
06-18-2007, 09:06 PM
Fuck it, why am I getting involved in this?

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 09:08 PM
Well, of course "when it's too late." Do we catch murderers BEFORE they kill someone? You can say that it's possible, that someone may have eventually killed someone, but it's impossible to prove.

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:09 PM
Let's back up for a moment. It doesn't matter what Satanism preaches, because that doesn't necessarily dictate what actions its followers will take. Christianity has much more positive messages as its main philosophy, but which religion has had more violence committed in its name? You can't punish people for what they might do, only what they've done.

Goddamn you are on a roll.

To be honest, I am only against restricting sales to minors because I am a minor....Once I hit 18, I probably won't give a shit. But wont kids just find their music on the internet, like they already do?

But, the main idea of this whole thread is that these bands are being banned from PERFORMING in Poland.....Anyone want to take the authoritarian stance on this one, and say what happens in the privacy of a privately-owned club/venue, in the presence of fans that willfully purchased tickets to see the band performing, should be regulated/outlawed?

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 09:11 PM
Let's not even mention the absolutely ridiculous fact that Marilyn Manson was banned for the same reasons as Behemoth.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:20 PM
Goddamn you are on a roll.

To be honest, I am only against restricting sales to minors because I am a minor....Once I hit 18, I probably won't give a shit. But wont kids just find their music on the internet, like they already do?

But, the main idea of this whole thread is that these bands are being banned from PERFORMING in Poland.....Anyone want to take the authoritarian stance on this one, and say what happens in the privacy of a privately-owned club/venue, in the presence of fans that willfully purchased tickets to see the band performing, should be regulated/outlawed?

In principle, I'd take the partial authoritarian stance in a similar age restriction as I've suggested for album sales for concerts. No pun intended but the devil is in the details.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:22 PM
Let's not even mention the absolutely ridiculous fact that Marilyn Manson was banned for the same reasons as Behemoth.

How about banning Marilyn Manson because his music SUCKS?

:tongue:

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:22 PM
In principle, I'd take the partial authoritarian stance in a similar age restriction as I've suggested for album sales for concerts. No pun intended but the devil is in the details.

What if America forbade YOU from going to metal concerts? Or from running this metal website? Would you go along with that?

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 09:23 PM
How about banning Marilyn Manson because his music SUCKS?

:tongue:
But doesn't that give you a clue that this whole situation is completely fucking preposterous?

Div
06-18-2007, 09:23 PM
It also saddens me that you, Mike, focused only on a small part of my argument (that all belief systems, at their core are harmless, only the believers are dangerous), and you ignored my "Parents need to tame their kids instead of meddling in other peoples busness" statement.



whats the point of arguing statements i agree with?



"statement!"
"i agree"
"really? im glad you agree"
"thats great, now we all agree"
"hooray agreement"
*party*

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:24 PM
What if America forbade YOU from going to metal concerts? Or from running this metal website? Would you go along with that?

I'm not a minor, so both questions are moot. :cool:

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:25 PM
whats the point of arguing statements i agree with?



The ideals of Satanism were the specific. The idea that you should be allowed to believe whatever you want was the big-picture. I dont give a fuck what Satanists believe. When I met the Satanist at the Sepultura show, I was scared shitless. The point was, society/government doesnt have the right to say what is okay and what is wrong to believe.

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:29 PM
I'm not a minor, so both questions are moot. :cool:

The All-Polish Committee for Defence against Sects IS BANNING ALL SATANIC CONCERTS IN POLAND, FOR MINORS AND ADULTS ALIKE!!!!!! READ THE ARTICLE! THESE GUYS DONT WANT ANYONE TO HEAR ABOUT SATANISM, NOT JUST MINORS!!!

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:29 PM
But doesn't that give you a clue that this whole situation is completely fucking preposterous?

I never paid attention to Marilyn Manson. The little music I've heard, I haven't liked.

Div
06-18-2007, 09:31 PM
The ideals of Satanism were the specific. The idea that you should be allowed to believe whatever you want was the big-picture. I dont give a fuck what Satanists believe. When I met the Satanist at the Sepultura show, I was scared shitless. The point was, society/government doesnt have the right to say what is okay and what is wrong to believe.


you're correct, which is why i didnt argue it

powerslave_85
06-18-2007, 09:31 PM
To me, the fact that they included Marilyn Manson in the ban shows that they have no fucking clue what they're talking about or what bands like Behemoth are about; they're making knee-jerk reactions towards things that "look" offensive without bothering to see either band's actual message.

ChildrenofSodom
06-18-2007, 09:36 PM
To me, the fact that they included Marilyn Manson in the ban shows that they have no fucking clue what they're talking about or what bands like Behemoth are about; they're making knee-jerk reactions towards things that "look" offensive without bothering to see either band's actual message.

Neither band is trying to lure children into the snare of Satan. They just presenting their ideals with music..if you like it, fine. If you dont, thats fine too.

hot_turkey_ed
06-18-2007, 09:42 PM
To me, the fact that they included Marilyn Manson in the ban shows that they have no fucking clue what they're talking about or what bands like Behemoth are about; they're making knee-jerk reactions towards things that "look" offensive without bothering to see either band's actual message.

Probably.