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DethMaiden
08-08-2011, 03:46 PM
Who else is following this story? Thoughts?

ravenheart
08-08-2011, 03:53 PM
The what now?

jd091
08-08-2011, 04:36 PM
Periphery just posted on their facebook that a couple of the venues they've been to before got burnt pretty bad. :( Not good...

DethMaiden
08-08-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm gonna have to step away from Twitter and news sites at some point, it's starting to make me really worried and sick. I've got a lot of friends and colleagues in the areas getting hit hardest. I've been reading a nonstop stream of updates for the last like seven hours and I'm starting to freak myself out. Not usually a big news junkie (at least for a journalist) but I can't pull away.

ravenheart
08-08-2011, 05:07 PM
Frankly most of what's on social networks is complete bullshit and the live news broadcasts are crap.

Will update tomorrow.

mankvill
08-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Panic in the streets of london

JRA
08-08-2011, 06:03 PM
The what now?

:lol:

mankvill
08-08-2011, 07:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/cIyXY.jpg

jd091
08-08-2011, 07:10 PM
http://i.imgur.com/cIyXY.jpg

:lol:

ravenheart
08-09-2011, 02:25 AM
Right, so...

TRUE
- Almost all of the rioting was not linked to any actual protest or event, it was just opportunist low-level gangs taking the excuse to steal some stuff and have some fun.
- gangs were co-ordinating via Blackberry Messenger and Twitter, but it doesn't seem like it was premeditated, just organising on-the-fly.
- riots broke out in Bristol, Liverpool and Birmingham - just for the sake of joining in
- David Cameron returned early from a holiday to have a crisis meeting this morning and will recall Parliament on Thursday
- The England v Holland football friendly, and some other lower level sporting events, have been cancelled.

NOT TRUE
- London Zoo was attacked and animals escaped
- Manchester had riots
- the Army are being called in

UNKNOWN
- whether or not the Suicidal Tendencies gig on Monday will be cancelled

ChildrenofSodom
08-09-2011, 05:24 AM
So, not to legitimize violence, but is this at all related to some legitimate racial grievance/tension? These "gangs", or at least the ones they are covering in the US news, all appear to be black, and the guy that was shot was black. Are they upset over the shooting or just taking advantage of the general unrest?

DethMaiden
08-09-2011, 05:45 AM
So, not to legitimize violence, but is this at all related to some legitimate racial grievance/tension? These "gangs", or at least the ones they are covering in the US news, all appear to be black, and the guy that was shot was black. Are they upset over the shooting or just taking advantage of the general unrest?

This seems a pretty fair take, having not been there during it. It's sort of about the killing of Duggan and misuse of police power, it's sort of about racial tensions, it's sort of about the lack of economic opportunity and the frustration thereof, but a lot of it really is about the convenience of a riot breaking out and low-level gangs being able to loot and have a blast for a few nights, and general mob mentality/ignorance of kids who don't know any better and haven't been taught any better:

http://thequietus.com/articles/06730-hackney-riots

DethMaiden
08-09-2011, 05:55 AM
Right, so...

TRUE
- Almost all of the rioting was not linked to any actual protest or event, it was just opportunist low-level gangs taking the excuse to steal some stuff and have some fun.
- gangs were co-ordinating via Blackberry Messenger and Twitter, but it doesn't seem like it was premeditated, just organising on-the-fly.
- riots broke out in Bristol, Liverpool and Birmingham - just for the sake of joining in
- David Cameron returned early from a holiday to have a crisis meeting this morning and will recall Parliament on Thursday
- The England v Holland football friendly, and some other lower level sporting events, have been cancelled.

NOT TRUE
- London Zoo was attacked and animals escaped
- Manchester had riots
- the Army are being called in

UNKNOWN
- whether or not the Suicidal Tendencies gig on Monday will be cancelled

So basically if you aren't an idiot, you can separate the rumor from fact. Hopefully the Suicidal gig is on, initially there were reports that the Ballroom burned, but apparently it was just smashed up and robbed.

ravenheart
08-09-2011, 05:58 AM
So, not to legitimize violence, but is this at all related to some legitimate racial grievance/tension? These "gangs", or at least the ones they are covering in the US news, all appear to be black, and the guy that was shot was black. Are they upset over the shooting or just taking advantage of the general unrest?

It's nothing to do with anything. It's just low-level criminals taking advantage of the opportunity to steal some stuff.

The only thing vaguely connected to any actual issue was the demonstration in Tottenham on Saturday, which was started by the criminal family of the criminal who got show last Thursday.

Frankly, the whole thing is getting on my wick. Especially people trying to read some kind of social commentary into the situation where there isn't anything more than "they wanted to get some free stuff" to it.

ChildrenofSodom
08-09-2011, 06:03 AM
Did London's basketball team win the championship game, at least? That would be a good reason to have racially-tinged riots and looting.

ravenheart
08-09-2011, 06:03 AM
So basically if you aren't an idiot, you can separate the rumor from fact. Hopefully the Suicidal gig is on, initially there were reports that the Ballroom burned, but apparently it was just smashed up and robbed.

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm hearing the damage to the Ballroom is pretty minor. So far though, if the gig does go ahead, then the riots have had one positive effect. Gama Bomb have pussied out of the show :D

ravenheart
08-09-2011, 06:05 AM
Did London's basketball team win the championship game, at least? That would be a good reason to have racially-tinged riots and looting.

Did the who win the what now? :eyes:

jd091
08-09-2011, 06:18 AM
Did London's basketball team win the championship game, at least? That would be a good reason to have racially-tinged riots and looting.

:lol:


Did the who win the what now? :eyes:

America jokes. Don't worry. ;)

ChildrenofSodom
08-09-2011, 07:37 AM
Photos like this don't do anything to dispel the race riot narrative:

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/xMWXKN_EYKtbeg85ysKJug--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00NTM7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/942780bccb915e11f50e6a7067008f7e.jpg

A volunteer clean up crew in London.

mankvill
08-09-2011, 11:58 AM
UNKNOWN
- whether or not the Suicidal Tendencies gig on Monday will be cancelled

I'd riot if it is

DethMaiden
08-09-2011, 01:42 PM
One of the biggest bummers in all this:

http://pitchfork.com/news/43478-labels-react-to-sonypias-warehouse-fire/

zgodt
08-09-2011, 03:34 PM
It's nothing to do with anything. It's just low-level criminals taking advantage of the opportunity to steal some stuff.

The only thing vaguely connected to any actual issue was the demonstration in Tottenham on Saturday, which was started by the criminal family of the criminal who got show last Thursday.

Frankly, the whole thing is getting on my wick. Especially people trying to read some kind of social commentary into the situation where there isn't anything more than "they wanted to get some free stuff" to it.

How can you be so certain that there's no significant social issues behind this? I am so skeptical when relatively well-to-do white folks insist that race and class inequality/injustice have nothing to do with what's going on.

mankvill
08-09-2011, 03:38 PM
How can you be so certain that there's no significant social issues behind this? I am so skeptical when relatively well-to-do white folks insist that race and class inequality/injustice have nothing to do with what's going on.

here we fucking go again

jd091
08-09-2011, 03:42 PM
here we fucking go again

OH HERE IT GOES HERE IT GOES HERE IT GOES AGAIN
HEEERE IT GOES AGAIN

ravenheart
08-09-2011, 03:57 PM
How can you be so certain that there's no significant social issues behind this? I am so skeptical when relatively well-to-do white folks insist that race and class inequality/injustice have nothing to do with what's going on.

Wait, you're actually serious aren't you? From 6000km away watching utterly appalling international news coverage.

But yeah, OK, you carry on:wallbang:

ChildrenofSodom
08-09-2011, 04:50 PM
zgodt's concern is legitimate, and its what I was beating around the bush about. To put it in an over-the-top, Louis CK-esque way: "By golly, guvnah! Look at those pickaninnies on the tele stealing all those basketball sneakers! That isn't any way for Britons to behave!"

powerslave_85
08-09-2011, 04:59 PM
I was talking to someone on another board who lives in London and she said it doesn't seem to be as racially motivated as people initially thought, though I think there's absolutely a class injustice factor to it. Give people enough time to simmer under poverty and hopelessness, and they'll lash out eventually.

zgodt
08-09-2011, 05:57 PM
Wait, you're actually serious aren't you? From 6000km away watching utterly appalling international news coverage.

But yeah, OK, you carry on:wallbang:
Am I serious to ask a question and express some skepticism? Sure. I didn't suppose that a questioning attitude should put me on especially shaky ground. Forgive me if my experience with well-to-do white folks (a group I count myself among) is generally that they are willfully blind to legitimate class/race grievances. (For case in point, see mankvill's knee-jerk eyeroll.)

I haven't been taking in much of the "utterly appalling international news coverage," really. I heard some commentary on NPR that mostly was in line with what you said (which for instance quoted a British official as chalking the whole thing up to "sheer criminality"). And I perused this editorial from The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/blog/162641/anarchy-uk I don't profess to know anything better than you. I just recognize that usually the explanation that "it's just a bunch of thugs" is oversimplified.

zgodt
08-09-2011, 05:59 PM
Forgive me as well if I thought that an actual discussion about what's going on in London these days might be a trifle more interesting than the variation-of-the-week on the top-ten album thread and Dio vs. Ozzy for the fifteen millionth time.

mankvill
08-09-2011, 06:01 PM
Just get your "omfg racist!!3241!" tirade over with and go away again :lol:

jd091
08-09-2011, 06:14 PM
From Sergeant D's tumblr:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpo0arOhWK1r1pwklo1_r1_500.jpg

"the one white person on the right looting orange soda tho"

:lol:

mankvill
08-09-2011, 06:24 PM
http://i.imgur.com/vgzlx.png

powerslave_85
08-09-2011, 06:32 PM
I have to say, the police there are either showing enormous restraint or they're completely overwhelmed (or maybe a bit of both). If this were in the US, the cops would have turned it into a shooting gallery days ago.

ChildrenofSodom
08-09-2011, 08:16 PM
Just get your "omfg racist!!3241!" tirade over with and go away again :lol:

Fuck you, sometimes, you know that? I bet you think "reverse racism" is a big deal, dontcha?

mankvill
08-09-2011, 08:32 PM
Fuck you, sometimes, you know that? I bet you think "reverse racism" is a big deal, dontcha?

I prefer sideways racism

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 01:35 AM
http://i.imgur.com/vgzlx.png

Yeah, there are a lot of comments about the "working class" from people who sit at home all day and milk state benefits...

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 02:11 AM
I just recognize that usually the explanation that "it's just a bunch of thugs" is oversimplified.

Not this time. It's 100% accurate. All the speculation about class stuff has been added afterwards as an excuse. It was never about that. It didn't start from anything to do with that on Saturday, and what has followed has been pure opportunism.

And lets not forget that as sensational as the stories appear, and as seemingly wide-spread as this all was, we're still talking small scale stuff. Take the Liverpool riot as an example. Population 48,000, estimated size of rioting mob 200.

Most of the mobs in London numbered in the low hundreds, in a city with a population of nearly 8 million. This isn't some kind of nation wide, lower class rebellion. It's the small groups of thugs who exist in each of the major cities who saw an opportunity to get away with some stuff on a slightly larger scale than they normally would be able to, and took it.

My views on all of the whining bullshit about class, unemployment, education, race to an extent, although racism is a genuine issue in a lot of other areas of life, just not this particular incident, are unpopular. They usually spark the same "you're only saying that because you're not one of those people affected" idiotic, knee-jerk responses, and I can't be bothered to explain why that is completely wrong.

To be honest, I'm just tired of pias assholes trying to come up with excuses for things.

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 02:19 AM
Forgive me as well if I thought that an actual discussion about what's going on in London these days might be a trifle more interesting than the variation-of-the-week on the top-ten album thread and Dio vs. Ozzy for the fifteen millionth time.

Yeah, because that's what this is about. Might have been a worthwhile comment if you're started the discussion and been shot down or something. :wallbang:

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 04:08 AM
I was talking to someone on another board who lives in London and she said it doesn't seem to be as racially motivated as people initially thought, though I think there's absolutely a class injustice factor to it. Give people enough time to simmer under poverty and hopelessness, and they'll lash out eventually.

What poverty and hopelessness? This wasn't a riot by street beggars and Big Issue sellers (Google if unaware of what the Big Issue is) for Christ sakes. This was locals, as I said before, all with decent clothes and expensive mobile phones. People are using the class thing as an excuse.

Don't forget, this wasn't spontaneous lashing out. The first riot was started by the family of the guy who got shot last week because they felt their local police station weren't taking them seriously. After that gathered so much pace on Saturday in Tottenham, the subsequent riots in completely unrelated areas of London on Sunday and Monday were simply copying what went on on Saturday because they realised they could get away with it for a little while before the police actually mobilised enough officers to stop it happening, which they didn't manage to do until yesterday.

And anyway, the class thing doesn't even exist anymore. There's no such thing as a group of people who are working hard but being disadvantaged, no more so than anyone else in the country. In actual fact, the way the tax system is now, you're actually proportionally more disadvantaged if you earn higher wages. There are two classes now. Upper class, and everyone else. And the difference dividing the "everyone else" class is simple laziness. Those who could be bothered to work hard and get an education, and lets not forget that education up to 18 is free here so family finances don't come into it, are skilled and qualified enough to get jobs. Those who decided to fuck around at school and not bother learning anything are now either unable to get the jobs that are around (because claims that there are a lack of jobs in the UK are bullshit, there's a shit ton of jobs around, but there is a lack of skilled people to take them), or are too lazy to work and prefer to live off state benefit.

There is a problem where state benefit pays more than most basic jobs, and that definitely needs fixing. That would probably get half the job seekers allowance (previously called unemployment benefit) claimers into work if they thought it was actually worth their while to do so, but there's still the half who simply want to be given everything for free and don't want to work for it. Take immigrants from Europe as an example. There's no crisis where immigrants are coming here and finding they can't get work. The ones willing to work, who didn't come here because they heard our state benefit system is an easy ride (it is), get jobs. Because there are jobs there. Unemployment in the UK is not the result of lack of jobs, it's the result of lack of skills, low pay in basic jobs, and a lack of willingness on the part of the unemployed. If there were an actual lack of jobs, the jobs sections of the newspapers would be empty and the huge number of employment agencies that exist here wouldn't be able to run.

I'd actually be interested to know how prevalent the class system still is the US, because I don't know. But here it's something which died out some time ago and the only people still clinging to it as an excuse are do-gooders and lazy people.

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 04:17 AM
I have to say, the police there are either showing enormous restraint or they're completely overwhelmed (or maybe a bit of both). If this were in the US, the cops would have turned it into a shooting gallery days ago.

It was a bit of both, for sure. And a third part was litigation culture.

They were certainly outnumbered to begin with. London's police force has a lot of officers, but a stupidly low number of them are actually on duty on the streets at any one time. They've been criticised about it for years, and it's entirely due to budget cuts. When they went into crisis mode on Monday and called everyone in to make sure they stopped anything happening on Tuesday they numbered 13,000 officers. With another 3,000 on loan from police forces in neighbouring areas. The last few days has certainly demonstrated how under-prepared London's police are for any real trouble simply by virtue not having enough officers on duty during normal times.

Then there is the restraint thing, and part of that is legal. As you know, our officers don't carry guns. The Met have one firearms division. In fact, it is still being debated whether, should anything flare up again in the next few days, the police should be allowed to use water cannons and plastic bullets. Seriously. A decision on that still hasn't been taken, and now it's probably too late to matter anyway. The extent of "reasonable force" for situations like these is always decided on a case by case basis. The standing rule otherwise is that not much is permitted.

The litigation thing I mentioned is huge too. There have been many cases over the last couple of days of criminal damage and looting taking place, and police officers literally standing on the opposite side of the street watching it happen. The reason being there are less officers than there are looters. The only to stop it would be for the officers to wade in with batons or whatever and starting bashing heads. And they know full well that if they do that the do-gooders will immediately start crying police brutality and they'll be up on assault charges. To quote one officer on Monday asked directly by a reporter why he wasn't trying to stop looters in a store on the other side of the street, "we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't".

jd091
08-10-2011, 04:25 AM
such a massive wall of text and I didn't read one word...

ravenheart
08-10-2011, 04:30 AM
such a massive wall of text and I didn't read one word...

Yeah, I'm bored of typing now.

No accounting for laziness though ;)

zgodt
08-11-2011, 08:10 PM
Not this time. It's 100% accurate. All the speculation about class stuff has been added afterwards as an excuse. It was never about that. It didn't start from anything to do with that on Saturday, and what has followed has been pure opportunism.

And lets not forget that as sensational as the stories appear, and as seemingly wide-spread as this all was, we're still talking small scale stuff. Take the Liverpool riot as an example. Population 48,000, estimated size of rioting mob 200.

Most of the mobs in London numbered in the low hundreds, in a city with a population of nearly 8 million. This isn't some kind of nation wide, lower class rebellion. It's the small groups of thugs who exist in each of the major cities who saw an opportunity to get away with some stuff on a slightly larger scale than they normally would be able to, and took it.

My views on all of the whining bullshit about class, unemployment, education, race to an extent, although racism is a genuine issue in a lot of other areas of life, just not this particular incident, are unpopular. They usually spark the same "you're only saying that because you're not one of those people affected" idiotic, knee-jerk responses, and I can't be bothered to explain why that is completely wrong.

To be honest, I'm just tired of pias assholes trying to come up with excuses for things.

I think there's a difference between trying to understand what circumstances feed into behaviors and "making excuses" for those behaviors.

Thank you for elaborating on your understanding of the situation. The more I hear and read, the more I'm inclined to agree that the rioters' motives look pretty cynical. I heard a couple of looters interviewed on the BBC a day or two ago, and let's just say that they weren't coming from a place of well-articulated political rage.

That being said -- something has to be wrong for riots to break out, doesn't it? People don't go on smash-and-grab rampages out of nowhere.

I've heard plenty of idiotic knee-jerk responses from white folks who want to deny that race and class division continue to exist, let alone that they cause problems, so I'm going to stand by my initial skeptical stance as entirely reasonable. I hear what you're saying about class issues in Britain, and it likely is true that class issues there are different than here, although the claim that it's a complete non-issue sounds a little far-fetched to me. Here in the States, class divisions are deep and cause enormous and widening inequalities. Congress is doing their damnedest to maintain/expand tax cuts for the rich while slashing social programs for everyone else. I'm frankly amazed that Americans en masse, rather than being enraged by this, are largely complicit, and even agitate for it.