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View Full Version : Fuck punk ethos.


mankvill
10-03-2010, 01:14 AM
I dunno. Some post on a stupid website has been eating at me a lot lately.

There's a forum for DIY-type shows in and around Kansas City. Someone posted a link about the Scion Garage Fest, and some people got fucking pissed saying that Scion is a huge corporation and ruining the spirit of DIY/punk shows and will have their ads everywhere during the fest and we should all boycott it and go to other shows.

There were NO SCION AD'S AT ALL last night during the fest. And even if there were, it's not like Scion is some fascist corporation that tests shit on animals or uses sweatshops or something. Shit, they sponsor fantastic music fests/tours of all types and help up-and-coming bands get noticed. I can't speak for the Scion Rock Fest, but there were absolutely no traces of any Scion advertisements at either of the venues I was at.

I just think it's fucking bullshit that if you're a "punk" that you have to believe this certain set of rules and act a certain way. Just because the show is at a legitimate venue instead of a fucking broken-down house with boarded-up windows for free doesn't mean it's "killing the punk spirit." This is why I can't stand crusty's when music is involved at all. They are totally nice people but as soon as their at a concert or any music is brought up, they are straight-up dumbasses.

Go ahead and bring your homemade wine to share with your friends while you bust out every window at the flat the next hardcore show is at, I'll be at a real venue enjoying music without having to worry about douchebags.

tl;dr: Punk music is fine, but the attitude with it is fucking stupid.

ravenheart
10-03-2010, 02:44 AM
the attitude with it is fucking stupid.

You could have saved yourself some time and just posted this.

ChildrenofSodom
10-03-2010, 07:40 AM
I didn't see any advertisements at Scion Rock Fest, that I remember at least. Shit, I was bombarded with more ads from the different beer companies and shitty upcoming shows featured on the posters around the bar.

treghet
10-03-2010, 07:49 AM
This reminds me of my friend, who loves the local hardcore scene (as in real hardcore). He once said he hates going to shows with stages because that means the band is getting more popular.

elturtleboy
10-03-2010, 09:21 AM
I hate crustys to the max,i think thats why i cant get into the music. Unpolitical Crust rules. For being peace punks,they bitch about everything. And their politic ideals are stupid and pointless. Scion advertises by giving free shirts. Now thats punk rock. I say we start a crust band and sing about shit theyre against."i love eating meat and wearing fur coats,im a republican,feminist are not hot" etc.

SomewhereInTime72
10-03-2010, 10:34 AM
just replaced punk with metal in your post and also agreed

JRA
10-03-2010, 11:22 AM
The only "punk" ethos I disagree with is the idea that your supposed to hate an artist when they get rich and famous, and I'm pretty sure real punks are wondering how the hell that one slipped into the rulebook.

TonyD
10-03-2010, 12:50 PM
...because it's cool to like bands that nobody else likes?
Which reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcwGlGBK70w) :lol:

JRA
10-03-2010, 01:46 PM
...because it's cool to like bands that nobody else likes?


Bullshit faggot snobbery.

elturtleboy
10-03-2010, 07:38 PM
pssssh when ur first get into punk thats the "Rule" to hate known bands. I hated Rancid,Bad Religion,etc at first. But i was so sure the world had no idea about The Ramones and Sid Vicious. I was in middle skool. By high skool i didnt give a fuck no more. Rancid was one of my(and still is) my all time favorite punk bands. I hate the street punk scene way more tho. They're just pure fashion and sing about "Oi,up the Punxx,fuck emo,Get bush out of office!" etc. They dont know wtf theyre talkin about. And sadly thats all punk has to offer nowadays besides new hardcore which you open minded metalheads seem to know.:rocker: The punk stereotype towards metalheads was that they were closed minded. And studying the metal scene for like a year and something the metal scene is WAY more open minded and smart. I love punk rock,but the scene is total bullshit. Metal still offers a bunch of generes which is great. The only thing lame is the back yard thrash scene that cover Troops of Doom 3 times and say stupid shit like "Thrash Til Death! and See Ya In The Pit!". I didnt even notice how lame it was til RJ pointed it out. Plus I hardly see fights over stupid shit at any metal shows.

powerslave_85
10-03-2010, 07:59 PM
pssssh when ur first get into punk thats the "Rule" to hate known bands.No.

And sadly thats all punk has to offer nowadays No.

And studying the metal scene for like a year and something the metal scene is WAY more open minded and smart. Aaaaaaaand...no.

Maiden33
10-03-2010, 08:05 PM
On the subject of "open-mindedness"

Something I don't think people ever think about when fighting this most pointless of battles is that it is possible to have an open mind but still simply know what you like and what you want to listen to, and have that not be a very broad span. It's not a crime to love just one general style of music, though you'd certainly think so from the way many talk. I love metal, generally speaking. I don't feel ashamed to admit that simply hard rock/metal music consumes about 90%+ of my daily listening habits. I do like and certainly appreciate loads of other stuff that is not metal in the least, and will listen to it when I'm in the mood. But overall I know what I love, so I stick to it. Sue me.

But no, I won't deny that the metal scene is full of close-minded morons who only listen to a small variety of bands and shit on everything else. I know a decent number of them personally. But I know people out there who don't have the slightest clue about the depth that exists within metal or other musical genres, and aren't willing to give it a try. Ignorance spreads to a lot of other things, but everyone wants to play pin the tail on the donkey with metal fans.

powerslave_85
10-03-2010, 08:09 PM
I'm not saying the punk scene is a utopia of open-mindedness either, but in my personal experience, the idea that metal fans are THAT much better is kind of ridiculous.

DethMaiden
10-03-2010, 08:14 PM
I think I actively hate a lot more metal than non-metal. The things I'm least tolerant of are, by definition, metal. It's just shitty metal, which I have the ear to discern from good metal, which may not be the case for every genre.

But re: Jackson's original point, I agree. Capitalism > punks and hippies.

elturtleboy
10-03-2010, 08:17 PM
I'm not saying the punk scene is a utopia of open-mindedness either, but in my personal experience, the idea that metal fans are THAT much better is kind of ridiculous.

idk were ur from buddy,but thats how it works over here. And if your punk scene is playing more than street punk/crust then i speak only for los angeles.

Maiden33
10-03-2010, 09:03 PM
I think I actively hate a lot more metal than non-metal. The things I'm least tolerant of are, by definition, metal. It's just shitty metal, which I have the ear to discern from good metal, which may not be the case for every genre.

But re: Jackson's original point, I agree. Capitalism > punks and hippies.

I 100% agree with this statement, as long as we're on the same page that "good metal" and "bad metal", are, by and large, the opinion of whoever is judging.

I hate more metal bands than non-metal bands, that much is for sure. But make no mistake, there are a select few of non-metal (mostly mainstream pop/rock) bands that I really hate on.

SomewhereInTime72
10-03-2010, 09:34 PM
Yeah, I hate more music from genres I like the most too. ;)

Dextrimental
10-03-2010, 09:40 PM
I 100% agree with this statement, as long as we're on the same page that "good metal" and "bad metal", are, by and large, the opinion of whoever is judging.

I hate more metal bands than non-metal bands, that much is for sure. But make no mistake, there are a select few of non-metal (mostly mainstream pop/rock) bands that I really hate on.

More or less this. I mean most of the people on this board spend the better margin of their listening time with metal, therefore we've invested alot of time in researching and listening alot of metal, and as such found both good and bad aspects of it. I'm sure if any of us talked to someone who listened to as much punk or classical or indie as we do metal (whether that be a specific style of metal or metal in general) they would say the same thing about the genre they are most versed in.

And of course we could all form a united front on most pop ;)

mankvill
10-03-2010, 09:45 PM
No, i'm not really saying the punks around here are lame for hating "known" bands, but when you hate on a fest/tour just because it's sponsored by Scion, then you're a total douche.

zgodt
10-04-2010, 08:03 AM
What is Scion?

mankvill
10-04-2010, 01:44 PM
What is Scion?

They make cars and sponsor amazing festivals and tours, which are usually free.

Wizzbang11
10-04-2010, 03:46 PM
In the crusty's defense, 90% of crust punk is unbelievably better than most of the bands playing at this thing.
I realize that doesn't effect the bitching at all, but, I feel it should be noted.
Hunx and His Punx played here. Yeah.

mankvill
10-04-2010, 04:06 PM
In the crusty's defense, 90% of crust punk is unbelievably better than most of the bands playing at this thing.
I realize that doesn't effect the bitching at all, but, I feel it should be noted.
Hunx and His Punx played here. Yeah.

It's not even fair to lump in the majority of the bands that played the Garage fest with underground crust bands, though. Too different.

xStructualDefect
10-04-2010, 04:42 PM
I hate the street punk scene way more tho. They're just pure fashion and sing about "Oi,up the Punxx,fuck emo,Get bush out of office!" etc. They dont know wtf theyre talkin about. And sadly thats all punk has to offer nowadays besides

lol agreed about the street punk scene. i know a lot of people that are into that scene here and it's lame. thankfully some of my friends from that group are finally getting out of that scene and moving forward with their lives (not dressing like punks anymore, getting jobs, going back to school, not drinking and doing drugs all the time, etc). i know a looot of punks that are 18-21 that have been doing the same thing since they were 15, which is not going to school, going to punk gigs every weekend, drinking 40's of King Cobra almost every day at random spots, and basically not progessing in life at all. and it's sad to say that they all hang out and know a lot of street punks that are doing the same thing when they're 25. the few punk gigs i've been to had a grip of kids that are 15 or so and they were all "street punk'd out" with their clothing and were all really wasted. alot of these punks also hate on music that isn't street punk and talk a lot of shit about mainstream punk bands or mainstream artists in general.

just a random rant i felt like throwing in there. i'm also from LA so you probably know what i'm talking about with the street punk scene. that scene has been huge in the LA county for a good awhile now and i don't see it fading any time soon.

Maiden33
10-04-2010, 04:47 PM
I know I shouldn't, but I still completely :lol: every time I see the word "crust" referred to as a musical subgenre.

evildeadjedi
10-04-2010, 05:25 PM
I was heavily into various genres of punk music for several years (during that time I did shun the majority of other music). However, I never saw the appeal of the "street punk" scene (squatting in run down buildings, drinking and doing drugs is a waste of life). I grew out of only listening to punk and I'm glad I did because I was missing out on so much great music. I'm not surprised the punks are against show since it's sponsor by a corporate entity. My opinion free is free, as long as the company isn't involved in child slavery, genocide, terrorism, animal cruelty, etc it's fine by me.

makethemsuffer12
10-04-2010, 05:28 PM
I know I shouldn't, but I still completely :lol: every time I see the word "crust" referred to as a musical subgenre.

:lol:

"Hey man, check this band out! This shit is crusty!"

Div
10-04-2010, 05:46 PM
the best genre: trashcore crustgrinders

Crionics
10-04-2010, 06:12 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I've met some pretty open-minded punks in my area. But when you put these "ethos" on paper, they don't sound good.

illuminatus917
10-04-2010, 07:15 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I've met some pretty open-minded punks in my area. But when you put these "ethos" on paper, they don't sound good.

By all means lets be open minded, but not so open minded our brains fall out. Punks in my area are so "open minded" they experiment with their sexuality. AKA: Engage in gay sex acts even though they consider themselves straight. Not that they get any pleasure out of it. They call it "open sexuality," actually. Not bisexuality. It's like a requirement to be a punk... to "experiment." I actually don't mind the fashion, what pisses me off is their close-mindedness towards music genres outside of punk. Most metal fans listen to different shit. Not punks... at least not in my area.

TonyD
10-04-2010, 07:53 PM
I know I shouldn't, but I still completely :lol: every time I see the word "crust" referred to as a musical subgenre.

It definitely describes the people into it. I sold some pickups to somebody in a "crust" band one time and he was dirty as hell, and the money he gave me reeked of weed.

zgodt
10-05-2010, 06:43 AM
By all means lets be open minded, but not so open minded our brains fall out. Punks in my area are so "open minded" they experiment with their sexuality. AKA: Engage in gay sex acts even though they consider themselves straight. Not that they get any pleasure out of it. They call it "open sexuality," actually. Not bisexuality. It's like a requirement to be a punk... to "experiment." I actually don't mind the fashion, what pisses me off is their close-mindedness towards music genres outside of punk. Most metal fans listen to different shit. Not punks... at least not in my area.

Huh. All the punk rock people I know listen to a pretty broad range of music.

powerslave_85
10-05-2010, 07:54 AM
Here's my two cents: it doesn't matter if a band gets popular or gets signed to a major, what matters is whether they change their music or overall attitude after they do. This goes for metal, too. Look at Rise Against: they're about as commercially popular and successful as most punk bands get, yet their music hasn't really changed, and neither has their sense of social activism. Mastodon is another good example. A lot of people went all Chicken Little when they signed to a major, but they're still putting out great music. There's always going to be the idiots who immediately scoff at a band once they start playing somewhere other than a basement, but that's not the majority. It's funny that so many people are using their experience with the street punk scene as an example, because street punk is by far the most stagnant sub-genre of punk. Everyone thinks that it's still 1981. In the end, punk has nothing to do with your clothes, or even really what your band sounds like. The street punk kid who leaves that scene behind to get a respectable haircut and start an avant-garde jazz band is infinitely more "punk" than the kids with mohawks and Exploited back patches.

zgodt
10-05-2010, 10:18 AM
I think what's silly about this entire argument is the idea that there's some monolithic "punk ethos." There are at least as many kinds of punks as there are kinds of metalheads. I think the general spirit of DIY that underlies most of it is perfectly noble, and I don't see why anyone would be against it in principle, unless they're selling something.

Humorless dogmatists are irritating, no matter what kind of music or style they ascribe to. Still, there are legitimate reasons to question corporate sponsorship of artistic events. I know a lot of arts and social programs couldn't exist without corporate sponsorship, so personally I'm glad to see them putting at least some of their money to good use. But is it always a good thing? At the teen center I work at, we recently had an offer from Red Bull to put on a pretty amazing hip hop event at our venue. It would have brought us some impressive credibility. But it also would be pushing sugary, caffeine-filled energy drinks on teenagers. So we decided against it.

I don't pretend to know a lot about crust / street punk, except that the bands I've heard play it have been pretty boring, and that the general public thinks of crust punks as stinky and annoying. But I'd wager that the individuals involved are probably not the mindless drones they're made out to be.

mankvill
10-05-2010, 11:13 AM
The street punk kid who leaves that scene behind to get a respectable haircut and start an avant-garde jazz band is infinitely more "punk" than the kids with mohawks and Exploited back patches.

:fist:

And the Anaal Nathrakh fan who gives a favorable review to a Bring Me The Horizon album is infinitely more metal than the kids with Lamb of God shirts? :eyes:

powerslave_85
10-05-2010, 11:19 AM
No, he's just confused.

makethemsuffer12
10-05-2010, 11:31 AM
No, he's just confused.

:fist:

illuminatus917
10-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Huh. All the punk rock people I know listen to a pretty broad range of music.

Again, it's probably just the area I'm in. I try to avoid sweeping generalizations, but damn it's hard. While I respect their music, they don't respect mine.

I think what's silly about this entire argument is the idea that there's some monolithic "punk ethos." There are at least as many kinds of punks as there are kinds of metalheads. I think the general spirit of DIY that underlies most of it is perfectly noble, and I don't see why anyone would be against it in principle, unless they're selling something.

Humorless dogmatists are irritating, no matter what kind of music or style they ascribe to. Still, there are legitimate reasons to question corporate sponsorship of artistic events. I know a lot of arts and social programs couldn't exist without corporate sponsorship, so personally I'm glad to see them putting at least some of their money to good use. But is it always a good thing? At the teen center I work at, we recently had an offer from Red Bull to put on a pretty amazing hip hop event at our venue. It would have brought us some impressive credibility. But it also would be pushing sugary, caffeine-filled energy drinks on teenagers. So we decided against it.

I don't pretend to know a lot about crust / street punk, except that the bands I've heard play it have been pretty boring, and that the general public thinks of crust punks as stinky and annoying. But I'd wager that the individuals involved are probably not the mindless drones they're made out to be.

Quite the opposite in fact... most punks seem to be highly intelligent. It's usually the same recycled shit about anti-capitalism, the evils of corporate America, socialistic agendas, the rise of the working class, etc etc. Nevertheless, it makes for better conversation than the emo kid talking about Whitechapel.

illuminatus917
10-05-2010, 12:53 PM
I think what's silly about this entire argument is the idea that there's some monolithic "punk ethos." There are at least as many kinds of punks as there are kinds of metalheads. I think the general spirit of DIY that underlies most of it is perfectly noble, and I don't see why anyone would be against it in principle, unless they're selling something.

Well, I think one has to recognize, when analyzing the punk genre, at least to a certain degree there applies an underlying set of principles upon which the genre is based around. And within these principles there tend to be hypocrisies, and blatant at that. Mankvill touched on it to an extent in his first post. First, and I think this is the part Mankvill touched on, there is the "unspoken" notion that punks must act certain ways, dress certain ways, and believe certain things, to an extent, to be identified as a punk. There are always exceptions, but this seems to hold true for the majority of the punk culture. This is hypocritical because it defies individualism, which is the primary prerogative of the culture: individuality. Punk advocates the freedom of expression and thought, and the rebellion of anti-individualism, yet, the mere fact that punks feel they have to dress a certain way or believe certain things is hypocritical to that nature.

The only reason to dress like a punk is to express individuality, right? So is it that expression of individuality that makes someone a punk? If punks are non-conformists, but they conform to that fashion and that expression of individuality, what makes them any more "non-conformist" than anyone else?

This thought process isn't limited to punk though. To be quite clear, metalheads can have the same mentality. Most groups are the same. There are underlying sets of rules that must be met to be identified as a part of the group. If a punk were to tell a pseudo-punk “you’re not punk,” it would imply that there were a certain set of rules and standards that had to be met in order to be identified as a member of the group (and that the pseudo-punk had failed to meet them), which is especially hypocritical to punks because of their roots and foundation of individualism. Punk was hypocritical the moment it gave itself a set of rules, because its own rules are hypocritical to its own establishment. But we see the same thing when a metalhead goes up to a preppy dressed kid in school, who happens to listen to metal, and says "you're not metal." He's inferring that because the preppy kid doesn't dress the way metalheads are "supposed" to dress, he's not metal.

powerslave_85
10-05-2010, 12:53 PM
The whole notion of punk as fashion has more or less disappeared nowadays, with the exception of a few subcultures (like street punk). Look at some of the more popular/respected punk bands around right now: Bad Religion, Rise Against, Propagandhi, Dillinger Four, etc. None of them dress out of the ordinary; you wouldn't look twice if they passed you on the street. Hell, Bad Religion look more like math teachers and dads at soccer practice than punk rockers these days.

illuminatus917
10-05-2010, 01:03 PM
The whole notion of punk as fashion has more or less disappeared nowadays, with the exception of a few subcultures (like street punk). Look at some of the more popular/respected punk bands around right now: Bad Religion, Rise Against, Propagandhi, Dillinger Four, etc. None of them dress out of the ordinary; you wouldn't look twice if they passed you on the street. Hell, Bad Religion look more like math teachers and dads at soccer practice than punk rockers these days.

It has to a degree, yes, but there are still remnants of "punk mentality," mostly with street punks, as you mentioned. "It's not true punk unless it's crust, anarcho, or hardcore,"

treghet
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
The whole notion of punk as fashion has more or less disappeared nowadays, with the exception of a few subcultures (like street punk).

Where I live, there are plenty of people still dressing in the punk fashion. Most of them are young, but I see about twice as many punks as metalheads.

zgodt
10-06-2010, 05:39 AM
Well, I think one has to recognize, when analyzing the punk genre, at least to a certain degree there applies an underlying set of principles upon which the genre is based around. And within these principles there tend to be hypocrisies, and blatant at that. Mankvill touched on it to an extent in his first post. First, and I think this is the part Mankvill touched on, there is the "unspoken" notion that punks must act certain ways, dress certain ways, and believe certain things, to an extent, to be identified as a punk. There are always exceptions, but this seems to hold true for the majority of the punk culture. This is hypocritical because it defies individualism, which is the primary prerogative of the culture: individuality. Punk advocates the freedom of expression and thought, and the rebellion of anti-individualism, yet, the mere fact that punks feel they have to dress a certain way or believe certain things is hypocritical to that nature.

The only reason to dress like a punk is to express individuality, right? So is it that expression of individuality that makes someone a punk? If punks are non-conformists, but they conform to that fashion and that expression of individuality, what makes them any more "non-conformist" than anyone else?

This thought process isn't limited to punk though. To be quite clear, metalheads can have the same mentality. Most groups are the same. There are underlying sets of rules that must be met to be identified as a part of the group. If a punk were to tell a pseudo-punk “you’re not punk,” it would imply that there were a certain set of rules and standards that had to be met in order to be identified as a member of the group (and that the pseudo-punk had failed to meet them), which is especially hypocritical to punks because of their roots and foundation of individualism. Punk was hypocritical the moment it gave itself a set of rules, because its own rules are hypocritical to its own establishment. But we see the same thing when a metalhead goes up to a preppy dressed kid in school, who happens to listen to metal, and says "you're not metal." He's inferring that because the preppy kid doesn't dress the way metalheads are "supposed" to dress, he's not metal.

So there are few dimwits in every crowd. A few people who, in the name of liberty, stumble over themselves rushing to fall in line. But that's hardly an indictment of "punk ethos."

illuminatus917
10-06-2010, 10:14 PM
So there are few dimwits in every crowd. A few people who, in the name of liberty, stumble over themselves rushing to fall in line. But that's hardly an indictment of "punk ethos."

I don't think "a few dimwits" quite suffices...