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Div
03-27-2010, 09:23 PM
anyone else think there are way too many subgenres these days? a few come to mind that i dont think should be serious categories... such as:

viking metal
epic metal
folk black metal
blackened death metal
etc.


seems like just about everyone is making a subgenre to describe the particular style of two or three bands. black and death metal are the worst offenders. i really dont think that you need a new genre category to describe a slightly different sound. example: "skeletonwitch are thrash, BUT THEY PLAY IN A LITTLE HEAVIER TUNE THAN SOME BANDS, so therefore they are BLACKENED THRASH" :hecho:

not really sure where else im going with this, it just annoys me to see people list their favorite metal genres and then post a bunch of made up bullshit.

:soapbox:

mankvill
03-27-2010, 09:33 PM
viking metal
epic metal
folk black metal
blackened death metal


There are very few viking metal bands, but it's a real genre

"Epic metal" is stupid

"folk black metal" sounds like it should be a real genre, but when I think about it, it's mostly just too much folk.

"Blackened Death Metal" is pretty much just straight up death metal nowadays.

My favorites:

shred metal
black n roll
death n roll
grind n roll
dark metal
"New Wave Of American Heavy Metal" when it's really just referring to melodic metalcore.
war metal, even though I fukn luv it
depressive/suicidal black metal, even though I fukn luv it
and FUNERAL DOOM. WHAT THE FUCK DOES FUNERAL DOOM EVEN MEAN?

Fires Of Sedition
03-27-2010, 09:34 PM
Every song on my iPod is labeled "Metal" :cool:

DethMaiden
03-27-2010, 09:36 PM
Every song on my iPod is labeled "Metal" :cool:

Every metal song in my iPod is labeled metal, but that's hardly every song. I sincerely apologize that for you it apparently is.

Div
03-27-2010, 09:38 PM
dark metal

wut

Fires Of Sedition
03-27-2010, 09:40 PM
Every metal song in my iPod is labeled metal, but that's hardly every song. I sincerely apologize that for you it apparently is.

Not every song is metal, I just selected all and typed Metal.

mankvill
03-27-2010, 09:40 PM
wut

Yeah, I've seen that thrown around a couple of times. I've never really checked out the bands, but I assumed it was like a Therion/Katatonia-type band.

Div
03-27-2010, 09:41 PM
There are very few viking metal bands, but it's a real genre


but is there a musical difference than any other metal? or is it called this just because the bands have a "viking" theme to them? if thats the case then thats why i think its bullshit, you cant group bands into a genre based on their lyrics alone.

Maiden33
03-27-2010, 09:41 PM
To me, metal breaks down into a few general categories:

Traditional Metal (takes many forms)
Progressive Metal
Power Metal
Melodic Metal
Thrash Metal
Black Metal
Death Metal

I think there's some others out there, but beyond the ones I listed and a few others I probably forgot because of lack of interest - all bands considered metal are merely a combination or cross-section of influences from these genres. You can break them down into somewhat well-defined subgenres and musical movements if you want - but I basically think 99% of all metal can, to some degree, be classified by using one or two of these genres.

mankvill
03-27-2010, 09:44 PM
but is there a musical difference than any other metal? or is it called this just because the bands have a "viking" theme to them? if thats the case then thats why i think its bullshit, you cant group bands into a genre based on their lyrics alone.

Nonono, bands that have a viking theme but are pretty much just melodeath are bands like Amon Amarth and Ensiferum (although Ensiferum's lats album was pretty valhalla)

I'm talking about bands like Mithotyn, Einherjer, Kampfar, etc. I don't know a ton of them, but they sound decidedly different than other bands with a viking theme. Almost like the guitars could be played on lutes or horns if they wanted. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TxZ2m5Sayk

:rocker:

DethMaiden
03-27-2010, 09:44 PM
To me, metal breaks down into a few general categories:

Traditional Metal (takes many forms)
Progressive Metal
Power Metal
Melodic Metal
Thrash Metal
Black Metal
Death Metal

I think there's some others out there, but beyond the ones I listed and a few others I probably forgot because of lack of interest - all bands considered metal are merely a combination or cross-section of influences from these genres. You can break them down into somewhat well-defined subgenres and musical movements if you want - but I basically think 99% of all metal can, to some degree, be classified by using one or two of these genres.

I do appreciate that you believe there's so few genres as I basically agree, but I still don't think there's such a thing as melodic metal. It's primarily a modifier for death metal, but it's not a thing in itself - melodic power metal especially isn't a thing. What does it mean, as opposed to all those disharmonic, unmelodic power metal bands?

mankvill
03-27-2010, 09:45 PM
To me, metal breaks down into a few general categories:

Traditional Metal (takes many forms)
Progressive Metal
Power Metal
Melodic Metal
Thrash Metal
Black Metal
Death Metal

I think there's some others out there, but beyond the ones I listed and a few others I probably forgot because of lack of interest - all bands considered metal are merely a combination or cross-section of influences from these genres. You can break them down into somewhat well-defined subgenres and musical movements if you want - but I basically think 99% of all metal can, to some degree, be classified by using one or two of these genres.

I'm okay with tagging a "melodic" or "technical" or "blackened" onto some of those, but usually not more than one.

also: where da grind at?

JRA
03-27-2010, 09:45 PM
If I may...


I think the fact that every fucking band that doesn't have a sound like Judas Priest has to have its own sub-genre is exactly what is killing metal. I remember listening to the commentary of get Thrashed and Rat Skates (yes, that Rat Skates) had mentioned that when everything started getting its own title, is when metal died for him, and now that I think about it, I can't help but agree with it. Just calling everything "metal" rather than getting its own name proves how vast and diverse the genre is. Some of you might say that the fact that there's so many sub-genres essentially the same thing, but the thing is, by giving a title for what you do, you're essentially trapping yourself in a corner, because when you decided to try something different, metal fans (open minded as they are) will turn their back on you.

As for terms like NWOBHM, I don't know who came up with that term but fuck them for doing so. It doesn't even really describe a sound, it's just telling you where the band came from! When you think about it, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, and Def Leppard were 3 completely different sounding bands, they all just happened to be from Britain. Wouldn't it have been easier for the music press to simply call that movement "the second generation of Heavy Metal?" Cos that's essentially what it was.

In conclusion, Opeth > faggot-ass sub-genres.

:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:


I think sub-genres were necessary when you couldn't listen to stuff instantly on the web. There needed to be SOMETHING to tell people what a band sounded like. Fans of Iron Maiden are not necessarily going to be fans of Venom, so to call both simply 'metal' really wasn't going to help anyone.

Now we can just tap into MySpace and sample pretty much any band for free, it's a lot less necessary because we can decide for ourselves far easier, and far cheaper.



yep. one of my friends met his girlfriend last semester, neither of them know much about metal, but there was one kid named matt who lived on their floor who was "metal" that would hang out with them alot. he just listened to black/death metal, mostly shitty bands like satyricon and dimmu borgir. i saw a picture of him on facebook one time, had his hair dyed black and gel'd up in 5 inch spikes, behind him was a big poster that just said "HEAVY FUCKING METAL" on it, and he was doing the "mega horns" (make a fist with each hand, stick your pinky fingers out, then move your hands together). i also heard he hates maiden because he says bruce is a "sellout" (wtf? :eyes:)

point of all this being, douchebags like this go around giving people impressions of metal, and it turns them off to looking into it further. i played overkill's "old school" in the car on the way to the movies last night and his girlfriend commented "wow that was really good, much better than anything matt ever played".

:eyes:

Maiden33
03-27-2010, 09:47 PM
Not every song is metal, I just selected all and typed Metal.

It's cool. I'm not really surprised Brad felt the need to make that comment anyway.

I don't even pay attention to genre as I'm putting things on my player, because it doesn't make a difference to me. It's funny the way it mislabels stuff - I never knew before that Seventh Wonder was Soul/R&B or that Edguy was "World" music. :D

Div
03-27-2010, 09:48 PM
:eyes:

:eyes::confused:


EDIT: o shit, forgot you made a post about this too. well its good to know im not alone on this

mankvill
03-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Oh yeah, labelling something "Norwegian/Swedish/Gothenburg/Brazilian" whatever is stupid as well.

DethMaiden
03-27-2010, 09:52 PM
Re: the original intention of the thread, it's certainly not necessary to give all kinds of labels to things - like I said, all the metal in my iPod is labeled as "Metal" - but when you're reading about an album, if you have some idea of what a ridiculously named subgenre actually sounds like, it can help you decide if the record is something you wanna check out. It's basically the next best thing after "sounds like (insert band)".

JRA
03-27-2010, 09:52 PM
:eyes::confused:


EDIT: o shit, forgot you made a post about this too. well its good to know im not alone on this

The thing is, your previous post seemed to be made in argument of why I shouldn't be complaining. Then to see you posting about it was like being slapped across the face with the John Holmes penis of irony.

Maiden33
03-27-2010, 09:53 PM
I do appreciate that you believe there's so few genres as I basically agree, but I still don't think there's such a thing as melodic metal. It's primarily a modifier for death metal, but it's not a thing in itself - melodic power metal especially isn't a thing. What does it mean, as opposed to all those disharmonic, unmelodic power metal bands?

See, you're stuck in thinking that "melodic" is only a modifier - which to me it is not.
There are many, many things I listen to that I don't consider anything else but "Melodic Metal" - best defined by bands with a very 80s, Hard Rock, AOR-inspired vibe. See: Pink Cream 69, Jaded Heart, I could expand the list but honestly you've probably never heard ANY of the bands so I don't expect you to really "Get" it through experience. The "Allen/lande" albums fall into this category too. They are NOT power metal, and I refuse to hear them categrized as such - they are their own genre, bridging a gap between AOR/Hard Rock and Traditional/Power metal - "Melodic Metal".

Now, obviously "Melodic" is also a modifier, most used in terms of "Melodic Death Metal". I personally don't even really use the term "Melodic Power Metal" - because I do believe it is a somewhat bullshit term that doesn't make much sense. I do however use "Melodic Progressive Metal" - because I think it is the best way to describe bands that are very technically intricate - but mostly stick to writing shorter, more accessible songs with a traditionally progressive sound, style, and technicality.

Fires Of Sedition
03-27-2010, 10:00 PM
It's cool. I'm not really surprised Brad felt the need to make that comment anyway.

I don't even pay attention to genre as I'm putting things on my player, because it doesn't make a difference to me. It's funny the way it mislabels stuff - I never knew before that Seventh Wonder was Soul/R&B or that Edguy was "World" music. :D

Samesies. I've gotten death metal songs labeled "Pop/Rock" before

Div
03-27-2010, 10:01 PM
The thing is, your previous post seemed to be made in argument of why I shouldn't be complaining. Then to see you posting about it was like being slapped across the face with the John Holmes penis of irony.

oh. you see sometimes i use this place (and i think everyone else does at some point) to vent about things because we dont have much immediate real life connections here.

that was more of a general rant post because some of my friends were being dumbasses "oh mike you like metal right? well we got this other friend whos also metal, hes got spikes in his hair and everything, and he says iron maiden are sellouts so i guess ure wrong about them hurr durr durr"

but i think there is a need for subgenres, but more similar to the list maiden33 posted, and less like every band making up their own category. of course, there are going to be posers who want to use metal for the "tough guy" image no matter what you do.

JRA
03-27-2010, 10:04 PM
Yea. Every time someone comes up with a new sound of metal does not require to be given it's on sub-genre. If anything it should be put in a pre-existing sub-genre, so that new sound can be seen as an expansion/forward movement.

TonyD
03-27-2010, 10:43 PM
Samesies. I've gotten death metal songs labeled "Pop/Rock" before

Even though it sounds ridiculous, if you divide music into a few huge genres that's how it works out.

Metal has a ton of genres and sub genres in part because the fans tend to be elitists and outcasts who need the feeling of ownership of what they listen to. Also playing is accessible to almost any fan, so there are thousands of bands trying to find a niche.

ChildrenofSodom
03-27-2010, 11:31 PM
I don't think the subgenres hurt anything or anyone, and bitching about it is just an exhibition of metal purism for purism's sake. (I'm drunk.) We have all been in the situation where some stranger finds out that you listen to metal, and (no offense to the noobs here) they ask "Oh, you like metal huh? Like Slipknot and Korn?" By subdividing the diverse field of metal, it is easier to a) find bands you may like, b) clarify a band's sound to other metalheads, and c) differentiate ourselves from the other bullshit that flies under the 'metal' flag.

I personally divide my ipod along mostly bullshit lines, mostly grouping bands that sound similar to me. All That Remains, In Flames, and Amon Amarth are all in the genre "Melodic Death Metal." Do they sound very similar? Not really, but they are close enough in my opinion, and it helps me organize my music.

Bands that invent their own genres (pirate metal, for example) are obnoxious, but most sub genres are not a problem in my opinion and bitching about it isn't really a worth while investment of my time. Not when people think all death metal=screamo.

TonyD
03-27-2010, 11:41 PM
c) differentiate ourselves from the other bullshit that flies under the 'metal' flag.


This is what kinda bugs me.

Yeah it's good for organizing and differentiating but by doing so I think it limits the creativity of many bands. It's hard to develop a unique sound, but easy (and way too common) to say, "what do we sounds like? ___ metal. How do we write songs? Like ___ metal songs." It might sound over simplified and completely lame, but it's true.

Maiden33
03-27-2010, 11:55 PM
(I'm drunk.)

What does that have to do with anything? Nothing you said was remotely incoherent or terribly irrelevant.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 06:58 AM
I'm sticking with my point JRA quoted. Sub-genres to the nth degree have outlasted their usefulness.

And I'm mostly on board with Maiden33 with the basics, but I wouldn't have melodic metal in my list (and I don't consider it anything to do with death metal at all, whoever said that), and doom is clearly missing. For me it's:

Traditional
Progressive
Doom
Death
Thrash
Black
Folk (or whatever you want to call the medieval stuff)
Rap/Crossover
Stoner/Southern

And to be perfectly honest, in my music library, everything with extreme vocals simply has the tag "extreme metal" because for me that's all the same mood, so I want to listen all of that, or none of it.

I suppose what this leaves is, where do you put all the "alternative" kids-metal bands. Seether, Mudvayne, Shinedown etc.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 06:59 AM
See, you're stuck in thinking that "melodic" is only a modifier - which to me it is not.
There are many, many things I listen to that I don't consider anything else but "Melodic Metal" - best defined by bands with a very 80s, Hard Rock, AOR-inspired vibe. See: Pink Cream 69, Jaded Heart, I could expand the list but honestly you've probably never heard ANY of the bands so I don't expect you to really "Get" it through experience. The "Allen/lande" albums fall into this category too. They are NOT power metal, and I refuse to hear them categrized as such - they are their own genre, bridging a gap between AOR/Hard Rock and Traditional/Power metal - "Melodic Metal".

Meh. Jaded Heart and Pink Cream 69 are just hard rock bands. Allen/Lande is just a metal album. There's not a lot about it to require its own genre.

I'm with the others. I'm not having melodic metal as a genre. There aren't sufficient differences there to warrant it.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 07:06 AM
Not when people think all death metal=screamo.

Outside of metal fans, most people think all metal = death metal.

Wizzbang11
03-28-2010, 08:10 AM
Hey Manky Black N Roll is totally a sub genre.
Not many bands play it, but the ones that do are clearly not black metal, but way to black metal to be heavy metal/hard rock etc.

daimonos
03-28-2010, 08:24 AM
Personally, with the way Melodic Death Metal is these days, I don't like to think of it as a subgenre of Death Metal, but it's own subgenre in general.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 08:24 AM
Hmm, I wonder if Motorhead are really part of a sub-genre called Metal n Roll... ;)

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 08:26 AM
Personally, with the way Melodic Death Metal is these days, I don't like to think of it as a subgenre of Death Metal, but it's own subgenre in general.

Whereas I just think of it as death metal. Variant or not, it's still death metal.

Someone mentioned funeral doom earlier. I understand the distinction because I'm a huge doom fan, but I don't recognise it as a separate genre. Doom is doom, some of it is slower than others, but it's still doom.

Example, I'm listening to the DoomDogs debut right now. It's got a far heavier rock influence than some doom, but is it Doom n Roll because it's a bit different to the traditional idea of doom metal? Fuck no. It's doom.

I agree with whoever said it earlier, just because a band comes out with something that sounds a bit different, doesn't mean it needs its own genre.

ChildrenofSodom
03-28-2010, 09:11 AM
This is what kinda bugs me.

Yeah it's good for organizing and differentiating but by doing so I think it limits the creativity of many bands. It's hard to develop a unique sound, but easy (and way too common) to say, "what do we sounds like? ___ metal. How do we write songs? Like ___ metal songs." It might sound over simplified and completely lame, but it's true.

Does that really happen all that often? I'm not sure musicians put as much weight into genres as listeners do. And even if they do, who is to say they are wrong to do so?...I mean, if they play music that sounds like a certain genre that they like, and it makes them happy, so what? If it wasn't for subgenres, who would people find new bands that they might like? Without "Melodic Death Doom", someone might say "Oh, you like Insomnium? Then you'll love other metal bands like Slayer, Lamb of God, and Attack Attack!" No, with that subgenre, I can more readily find bands like Swallow the Sun, Daylight Dies, etc.

Again - I don't think subgenres hurt anything, so I don't see a reason to complain. In my experience, I divide bands in my Ipod into different categories than someone else might. I know where each band is located, so I can find what music fits my mood more easily. Here are my genres:

Alternative, Alternative & Punk, Black Metal, Blackened Death Metal, Celtic Punk, Christian Metal, Comedy, Country, Death Metal, Deathcore, Doom Metal, Emo, Folk Metal, Gothic Metal, Grind, Hair Metal, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop/Rap, Indie, Industrial, Melodic Death Metal, Melodic Death Doom, Metalcore, Neo-Classical, Nu Metal, NWOBHM, Oldies, Pop, Post-Rock, Power Metal, Progressive, Progressive Power Metal, Punk, R&B, Reggae, Rock, Sludge, Southern, Southern Groove, Spoken Word, Stoner, Thrash, True Metal, Video Game Music.

ChildrenofSodom
03-28-2010, 09:12 AM
I agree with whoever said it earlier, just because a band comes out with something that sounds a bit different, doesn't mean it needs its own genre.

I think you guys are exaggerating how often that even happens.

mankvill
03-28-2010, 10:03 AM
Hey Manky Black N Roll is totally a sub genre.
Not many bands play it, but the ones that do are clearly not black metal, but way to black metal to be heavy metal/hard rock etc.

I know, but it's stupid.

b_halperin
03-28-2010, 10:08 AM
my itunes says morbid angel is alternative

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 10:08 AM
I think you guys are exaggerating how often that even happens.

Constantly. Seriously. Usually just by appending a prefix or suffix to something else, admittedly. But bands, labels and fans are doing it all the time. Some catch on, some don't.

And it's not just metal either. The dance/club/trance scene are doing it all the time as well. And whoever decided "slow jams" was a genre needs kicking in the head until dead.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 10:10 AM
If it wasn't for subgenres, who would people find new bands that they might like? Without "Melodic Death Doom", someone might say "Oh, you like Insomnium? Then you'll love other metal bands like Slayer, Lamb of God, and Attack Attack!" No, with that subgenre, I can more readily find bands like Swallow the Sun, Daylight Dies, etc.

Precisely my point for why they were necessary. Now their only use if for the lazy.

I think sub-genres were necessary when you couldn't listen to stuff instantly on the web. There needed to be SOMETHING to tell people what a band sounded like. Fans of Iron Maiden are not necessarily going to be fans of Venom, so to call both simply 'metal' really wasn't going to help anyone.

Now we can just tap into MySpace and sample pretty much any band for free, it's a lot less necessary because we can decide for ourselves far easier, and far cheaper.

ChildrenofSodom
03-28-2010, 10:16 AM
And is the use of subgenres 1) leading to global war, 2) causing CD prices to go up, or 3) doing any harm whatsoever? No. So, what is the big deal? I especially don't know how it is 'killing metal'.

TonyD
03-28-2010, 10:39 AM
Does that really happen all that often? I'm not sure musicians put as much weight into genres as listeners do.

It does, even if it's not a spoken thing, and it homogenizes the music.

mastodon421
03-28-2010, 11:15 AM
I don't think the subgenres hurt anything or anyone, and bitching about it is just an exhibition of metal purism for purism's sake. (I'm drunk.) We have all been in the situation where some stranger finds out that you listen to metal, and (no offense to the noobs here) they ask "Oh, you like metal huh? Like Slipknot and Korn?" By subdividing the diverse field of metal, it is easier to a) find bands you may like, b) clarify a band's sound to other metalheads, and c) differentiate ourselves from the other bullshit that flies under the 'metal' flag.

I personally divide my ipod along mostly bullshit lines, mostly grouping bands that sound similar to me. All That Remains, In Flames, and Amon Amarth are all in the genre "Melodic Death Metal." Do they sound very similar? Not really, but they are close enough in my opinion, and it helps me organize my music.

Bands that invent their own genres (pirate metal, for example) are obnoxious, but most sub genres are not a problem in my opinion and bitching about it isn't really a worth while investment of my time. Not when people think all death metal=screamo.


This is very well-put and I agree. I really don't see the problem with most subgenres. They keep things organized and if you have never listened to band before it lets you know what your in for.

Wizzbang11
03-28-2010, 11:33 AM
I know, but it's stupid.

SHUT UP JACKSON MIDNIGHT IS AMAZING

ChildrenofSodom
03-28-2010, 12:40 PM
It does, even if it's not a spoken thing, and it homogenizes the music.

That really isn't a good argument. Any examples? I seriously doubt that giving a name to certain sound is what is ruining music/metal. Online downloads, declining record sales, shitty influences, mass production of music...those may be reasons for a 'decline' and homogenization of metal, but I personally don't see it, nor do I think subgenres are the culprit.

SomewhereInTime72
03-28-2010, 12:46 PM
I personally think metal is only as dead as it ever was. The most popular sub-genres of metal have always been mostly shit. (hair metal -> nu metal -> metalcore -> whatever you wanna call the genre coming next) The underground metal scene is perhaps less successful than it once was, but makes up for it by being more varied (i mean look at all these different subgenres).

larvtard
03-28-2010, 02:16 PM
so where does groove fit into these "general categories?"

mankvill
03-28-2010, 02:33 PM
groove metal fucking sucks and is such a dumb name for a genre, but it has elements of thrash, metalcore, and heavy metal.

ravenheart
03-28-2010, 02:36 PM
groove metal fucking sucks

Wrong.

Not that I think it's a genre unto itself anyway. All good metal has groove. The best trash, the best doom, the best traditional and so on. It all grooves. And therefore, by definition, all metal without groove sucks.

mankvill
03-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Wrong.

Not that I think it's a genre unto itself anyway. All good metal has groove. The best trash, the best doom, the best traditional and so on. It all grooves. And therefore, by definition, all metal without groove sucks.

god damnit ravenheart, i'm not even gonna bother :hmm:

mastodon421
03-28-2010, 02:57 PM
groove metal fucking sucks and is such a dumb name for a genre, but it has elements of thrash, metalcore, and heavy metal.


Even though I like groove metal it is a stupid genre name.